Post by Owen Y on Aug 30, 2019 9:11:15 GMT 12
DARKO interviews Jesco Lohan, a mixing engineer in his Berlin studio about audiophile listening room acoustics. Jesco Lohan's webpage - Acoustics Insider.comSome take-away quotes: (The listening room)... in a typical untreated room, you are basically listening to 50-70% room...more room than speaker. " " (Listening position)... has a bigger impact on low frequencies than speaker positioning. " " You've got to optimise where you sit...(and when you've found that spot,) then you can place your speakers...to optimise the mids and the highs and the stereo image. " " (Getting the best out of your loudspeakers generally)... room, speakers and hearing ability...you gotta work on all aspects, to get the best out of what you've got. " " (Room treatment)... do something, gain some experience...you improve the quality of your room as your speakers improve, as your listening ability improves. " " Hold on with upgrading your speakers...you've (probably) never heard your speakers reach their full potential. "
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Post by foveaux on Aug 30, 2019 12:25:34 GMT 12
Great item, heaps of information and thought provoking points. Years ago I took advice that hearing ability is the most critical component for serious hifi listening. I got mine tested by an audiologist work colleague (was fine) and have tried to protect against hearing loss ever since. Good that Jesco affirms hearing ability. I still believe it to be of first importance. Room treatment is no doubt preferred for best sound, but as noted, expensive to do it right. For most of us, optimising other options is probably the most cost effective and realistic way of addressing the 50-70% room influence. Jim Smith's 'Get Better Sound' is useful here. It certainly sets out solutions to try that address the 'big issues' that Jesco identifies to get overall shapes correct. I recall a lightbulb moment when the Sound Organisation matey demonstrated to me, in their London demo room, how listening 'near field' i.e. speakers well into the room from the wall behind and listening seat relatively close to speakers and also well away from the wall behind, completely changed and improved the sound. However, this was impractical for pretty much all of my listening rooms since. Of course, headphone listening takes the room influence out and is why most are astonished with full range musical accuracy, balance, dynamics etc. when they first hear an excellent headphone setup. And no doubt why most of us have such a system too? My main system has a LMS (Loudspeaker Management System) that includes a digital crossover with a Room Correction System, Digital Signal Processor, and Real Time Analyzer, which (ahem) I have yet to deploy. At the moment this system is in storage, but I'll be interested to obtain improvements without room treatments etc. How lucky you chaps are with a mancave! As has been commented on before, the most cost effective improvement to the sound of your system, might be a two or three stiff single malt whisky's as you settle in to listen.
"I see music as a lifetime affair." [Rory Gallagher]
"Free - I miss that band, but when I look back, we were very young" [Paul Rodgers]
848 posts
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Post by cooksferry on Aug 30, 2019 14:06:15 GMT 12
As has been commented on before, the most cost effective improvement to the sound of your system, might be a two or three stiff single malt whisky's as you settle in to listen. That always works well for me.
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Post by colinf on Sept 4, 2019 4:16:11 GMT 12
I suspect whisky is what you turn to after listening to your system.🥃
AMR-iFi R&D
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Post by michaelw on Sept 4, 2019 10:30:31 GMT 12
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Post by Owen Y on Apr 28, 2020 12:10:04 GMT 12
An encouraging tale from this guy Paul about how he greatly improved his bass quality & Imaging, by applying some inexpensive simple room treatments. His room size (4.25m W x 4.9m L) is a typical 'medium' sized space, but not ideally proportioned (too square) for smoothest LF reproduction. i could use some of his DIY diffusers for one of my side-wall 'first-reflection' zone - to solve the LHS-RHS imbalance in my own room.
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 15, 2020 16:14:04 GMT 12
Like a lot of audio enthusiasts I suspect, room acoustics and/or room treatments is something that sits in the "too-hard tray". In my own room, I've been wanting to acoustically deal with a few things for a long time - non-symmetrical side-wall reflectivity, non-symmetrical & only average imaging & soundstaging, etc.... I was interested to hear 'Paul' in the above video observe.... " Early side-wall reflections ruin the imaging & create midrange colouration. " I've heard this sort of sentiment before but I had intuitively concluded that some side-wall reflection (or diffusion) can be beneficial to hearing a semblance wider 'soundstage' - ie. you don't want side-walls to be completely absorptive or 'dead'. An example is that my LHS wall is wallboard-lined reflective (at the 'early/first reflection' point) & the soundstage on that side often appears wider (& louder). Whereas the RHS wall has almost full-height, heavy curtains & sounds relatively 'silent' & quieter (compared to the LHS). Paul enthuses also (after treating his front wall with 'quadratic diffusers': " I was floored! The difference in sound quality of the system was enormous. First and foremost was the imaging... much, much deeper soundstage. lateral imaging was also fantastic, it's truly holographic! " Well that's the sort of inspirational kick-start I need...
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 17, 2020 12:19:06 GMT 12
I'll put up my room plan as an example - onto which I've worked out the side-wall 'first reflection' zones (for midrange & tweeter). Am a bit surprised (as I've never seriously considered room acoustics here before) at some things.... Notes: - The LHS reflection points are further rearward (toward the listener) than I had thought. - The RHS reflection points look to be affected by the double doors (the tweeter anyway & these are semi-glass doors). - The rear LHS corner diagonal (old fireplace) must be a significant acoustic factor. - The front wall has a bay-window - with full height heavy curtains over. - Front RHS wall has similar curtains over a 2nd set of double doors. - Ceiling height is 3.3m (11 ft) x 6.35m D x 3.65m W. - Walls are Gib-lined, floor carpeted floorboards, ceiling papered wood boards (typical old 1910-20s wooden villa-bungalow).
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 18, 2020 20:56:05 GMT 12
Why NOT to place your equipment rack between your speakers - says Paul McGowan (PS AUDIO) : 1. " Something that is distracting to the eye... that illusion (stereo imaging) is hampered. " 2. " ...(with) a nything that is going to have 'funny' absorption or reflection patterns... centre image... will be 'challenged' or hampered "
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 18, 2020 21:11:30 GMT 12
And in this John DARKO report - DARKO briefly explains how he gradually improved his loudspeaker in-room sound, from.... Something like this originally (TV on top of an equipment rack or a lightweight 'low-boy' cabinet) - To this (Ikea Kallax cube units full of records), which gives him a much improved sound, he says - (DARKO doesn't talk about the corner 'bass trap' elements, which are probably instrumental too.)
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Pundit
Post by belbo on Aug 19, 2020 2:05:38 GMT 12
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 20, 2020 21:12:47 GMT 12
Here's a system I just randomly spotted on YouTube - which is typical of many, like Paul McGowan mentions, with the space between the speakers occupied by non-solid, lightweight furniture & (horrors...) a TV! (Arguably, dipoles like these Maggies are less sensitive to off-axis room effects.)
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Post by RdM on Aug 20, 2020 21:24:21 GMT 12
I started out with a bare wall like that in the recent to small flat move, and the 'handclap' slap echo in the room was terrible !!! Hanging two sets of curtains (and I was prepared to drape old wool blankets in between, didn't, but might sometime) on the rear wall helped a lot. Vastly improved it.
Couldn't do much about the TV except at least has curtains behind it, and the speakers are appropriately forward from it.
A minor reflective surface, centered.
Which you have to have for basic home theater. Could have a fabric screen, if a projector. Even speakers behind a fabric screen as in cinema, and then there's the old, what is it called? cinema EQ for CD soundtracks of live concerts. I noticed something like that when borrowing the Havana Moon CD set from the library, vs the DVD, much brighter brasher treble than the film soundtrack seemed to have. Made me wonder if someone had not undone the EQ (if it existed) for the CD. OK, just general gist hints, a puzzle to unwind, and a segue off topic, except that an even brighter sound wouldn't play well in those bare walls ! ! The Rolling Stones, Havana Moon, from the free concert in Cuba, Out Of Control:
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Pundit
Post by belbo on Aug 21, 2020 0:56:01 GMT 12
Here's a system I just randomly spotted on YouTube - which is typical of many, like Paul McGowan mentions, with the space between the speakers occupied by non-solid, lightweight furniture & (horrors...) a TV! (Arguably, dipoles like these Maggies are less sensitive to off-axis room effects.) Apart from the sonic aspect TV is a turnoff, I used to have it on the wall like that (and I get why people do it) but I much prefer without it. We're now without a TV for the past 6 years and really haven't missed it at all (we spent more time listening to music or doing other things and there is always youtube).
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 21, 2020 10:01:00 GMT 12
Yes, we seldom watch TV, especially with Millennials living with us - they don't own TVs, they watch Netflix, listen to podcasts, subscribe to YouTube channels. News is more up-to-date & in-depth sourcing online.
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Post by michaelw on Aug 21, 2020 14:04:25 GMT 12
so many people get maggie positioning so wrong ! even official maggie photos
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Post by Citroen on Aug 21, 2020 14:25:37 GMT 12
michaelw Too close to the wall? Or tweeters wrong side?
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Post by michaelw on Aug 21, 2020 15:57:17 GMT 12
where do i begin... too close to walls, too close to furniture, big reflective piece of glass on the wall,
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 21, 2020 16:32:09 GMT 12
Dipoles, panels esp., I understand have largely front & rear output, relatively little side radiation. So, adjusting separation from front wall is the first thing recommended in Magnepan's 'placement guides'. Consequently also, I'd imagine the front wall's reflective/absorptive properties would affect sound greatly. Tweeters in or out (& therefore spacing) is personal preference I believe, whatever works best. (However, I've had a pair of Maggies in-house only once ) See also recent Magnepan LRS thread.
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Post by Citroen on Aug 21, 2020 16:35:31 GMT 12
The furniture makes good bass traps. Being dipoles a rear reflective surface may not necessarily be a bad thing! But yes, I get your point. But the ads are done for aesthetics, WAF. If they stuck a third the way into the room and the TV had a blanket over it... doesn't make for good copy!
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 21, 2020 17:48:58 GMT 12
....the front wall distance determines the 'cancellation' frequency - at which the in-phase rear output is reflected back inverted-phase to meet the front output. (I think I've got that right )
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Post by michaelw on Aug 21, 2020 18:06:33 GMT 12
i say those aesthetic ads damage the brand more than help it
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Post by Citroen on Aug 21, 2020 18:28:22 GMT 12
Oh, you underestimate the power of a good image!
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Post by colinf on Aug 21, 2020 18:42:51 GMT 12
Most of my Maggies were sensitive to toe-in and rear wall distance, also a little rear tilt. I liked having the tweeters on the inside and the speakers toed in a little. I don’t think anyone buys Maggies for WAF!
AMR-iFi R&D
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Post by RdM on Aug 21, 2020 19:03:05 GMT 12
Tweeters in or out (& therefore spacing) is personal preference I believe, whatever works best. (However, I've had a pair of Maggies in-house only once ) The chap from soundfountain, in a link posted elsewhere recently, seems fairly adamant that tweeters should be on the inside. Of course he's showing offset drivers in a box, not panels, and I'm not sure I entirely follow his reasoning or explanation.
The only time I've ever heard tall electrostatic panels was in the early 90's, in a small hifi shop in Broadway, Newmarket, Auckland. CDB side, maybe down a slight mall entrance? Hifi shops in Auckland were recently discussed, someone will know. I was astounded, the room filling presence and as it were wide sweet spot.
I forget the brand, vaguely wonder if they were Dutch, although that seems implausible. I soaked up DIY possibilities after that, but of course due to finances at the time it was impossible, as was buying a commercial pair.
Maybe that will change in future.
I added "tall" above there, I remembered I had heard since a pair of original Quad ESL driven by a friends self built PP KT88 valve amplifier, in Munich. The combination was underwhelming, but as a transient guest I didn't feel comfortable to say so. Menno van der Veen I later saw had a solution for that problem, in his book High-End Valve Amplifiers 2, a simple tuning/adjustment of a resistor. I used to borrow that book from the library, thought I might have scanned that page but can't remember, so have requested it again... Ridiculous Amazon price! He's written more since then. I've just quickly now scanned through a copy of "Floyd Toole -Sound Reproduction - Loudspeakers and Rooms (Elsevier, Focal Press 2009)" (PDF) and I don't see offset tweeter in or out mentioned.
But there is this delightful illustration, which corresponds with my own experience, starting with a bare room.
Cheers !!
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Post by RdM on Aug 21, 2020 20:00:34 GMT 12
"my own experience, starting with a bare room."
First priority on moving in - the lounge suite. ;-)
Second priority: the loudspeakers (and various bookshelves yet to be positioned). Later, it evolved ... extra rugs, curtains, bookshelves, oak coffee table.
Aforementioned double curtains behind the speakers. Thicker curtains for the windows. Bookshelves on the wall behind the lounge suite.
Still, if not always, a work in progress ;-)
~ RdM
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 21, 2020 20:36:23 GMT 12
Aesthetically/ architecturally, I'd always fancied an empty, bare, say wood-floored listening room - but sonically (as per above graphs), such a space would actually need a lot of 'treatment' in order to sound half decent!
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Post by colinf on Aug 21, 2020 20:54:19 GMT 12
Try Elektor magazine to buy Menno’s books. I’ve got them on Kindle. I’m in contact with Menno, we were discussing my new digital auto-bias circuit recently. Final Electrostatics are made in the Netherlands. I always preferred the Maggies’ tweeters on the inside as they give a bit better focus and imaging. You can hone in on instruments and their tone better. The imaging is a bit diffuse with them on the outside but the soundstage width is better that way. It’s a tradeoff... Quad ESL57s, you either love them or leave them! A frustrating speaker in many ways, the midrange is stunning, even today. They don’t play loud at all without arcing (without protection), beam excessively so you need to be sitting in the sweet spot only, and possess that fearsome reactive impedance curve for an amplifier. The amplifier to drive them should be a specific one - low powered, very clear, low-ish output impedance. Cartridgeguyonline loves his classic Quads. Come to think of it....I have a small English-sized room, don’t play music very loud, have one listening seat, love sonic transparency, maybe Quads are the answer. They were made here for these situations!
AMR-iFi R&D
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 21, 2020 21:54:24 GMT 12
Audiostatic lspkrs were made in Holland back then. (I see that they still exist.)
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Post by RdM on Aug 21, 2020 23:55:17 GMT 12
Final Electrostatics and Audiostatic indeed are easily found. final-audio.com/www.audiostatic.com/They don't show earlier models, but I'm leaning toward Audiostatic as possibly what I saw and heard in that store. Thanks!
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