Post by Graham on Aug 22, 2020 9:52:51 GMT 12
If like me your hifi system also shares space with a home theatre the only place for the dreaded TV is between the speakers. However don't panic , there are a couple of ways to make this configuration work, and work very well !! The potential problem is sound being reflected off the hard flat surface of the TV screen messing with the stereo image as has been stated. My solution is to not mount the TV on the wall but to pull it forward so that the front of the screen is parallel with the front of the speakers. In my case the front of the speakers are 550mm from the wall and so is the front of the TV which is sitting on top of a low cabinet. Sound radiating from the sides of the speakers cannot reflect off the TV because the two surfaces are parallel. In addition I have installed sound absorbing foam hanging loosely on the back of the TV to help soak up any sound reflecting off the wall behind that could get through the TV or make it vibrate. The rear of the TV has become a sound absorbing panel. !!! So, don't throw the TV away just yet until you try this simple solution. Cheers, Graham
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 22, 2020 10:38:59 GMT 12
RdM - shall we create a 'Fixing a Wurlitzer amp' thread in the DIY\Amplification section? Sound radiating from the sides of the speakers cannot reflect off the TV because the two surfaces are parallel I think what McGowan & DARKO have found & what is usually not recommended, is that a reflective surface on the front wall is just not conducive to good stereo sound. (From box speakers.) Moving a reflective surface forward to the plane of the speakers, tends to make the (TV) surface like an extension of the speakers' baffles. And we know that the baffle front of the speaker reflects & boosts HFs ('baffle step' effect), which is why lspkr designers often damp the surface around the tweeter. So, maybe it's still not the best idea for your speaker to deliver it's intended flattest response & for good in-room stereo. Not to mention, dealing with possible cabinet resonances that DARKO mentions, in the proximity of the lspkrs.
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 22, 2020 10:48:39 GMT 12
I had a similar situation (TV between spkrs). In the end, I placed the TV elsewhere. Either re-oriented or separate if possible, from the music listening.
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Post by Citroen on Aug 22, 2020 11:10:45 GMT 12
Sometimes I throw a blanket over the TV, which helps a little.
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Post by sub on Aug 22, 2020 11:12:17 GMT 12
I also have my system in a shared living space. The tv is mounted on a wall mounted swivel on a side wall, above the equipment rack. Swivel the tv out to watch, which means it is in line with the L spkr, but I find the ears adjust and dialogue still seems centred on the screen. However for music listening, unsure if the shape of the room helps or hinders good sound reproduction. We moved here when I retired, a small 2broom with a separate sleepout for guests. It is a pole house on the side of a hill, built in a hexagonal shape. There is a near two story inner hexagon, containing open plan living, kitchen/dining, downstairs and a large bedroom upstairs occupying half the floor space, leaving a large void near double story height. There is a single story outer hexagon, providing six spaces around the perimeter of the inner hexagon. Four spaces are covered verandas, a fifth is a bedroom, and the sixth provides an extension of the living space - with French doors opening onto a large deck. My system occupies that space. See images. Floors a hardwood and walls are tonhue and groove macrocarpa. Ceiling in “bay” above speakers is gib board, and in the inner hexagon exposed beams with timber sparking. The glass behind the spkrs is uv protection tinted. So, will such a space hinder or enhance the sound, and if it hinders (I think my set up is a little bass heavy - but believe that is because I m unable to move speakers any further away from back wall.). There is of course a large expanse of glass in wall behind spkrs, but heavy drapes cover that at night. Difficult to take clear photos with bright morning sun streaming in.
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Post by Graham on Aug 22, 2020 11:13:03 GMT 12
I'm not suggesting it's a perfect solution, just putting forward a way to make a combined hifi and home theatre work together very well. Life's too short to waste it on the fruitless pursuit of perfect hifi sound reproduction. Make a few compromises and just enjoy the music.
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Post by michaelw on Aug 22, 2020 11:22:45 GMT 12
I always preferred the Maggies’ tweeters on the inside as they give a bit better focus and imaging. Quad ESL57s, you either love them or leave them! A frustrating speaker in many ways, the midrange is stunning, even today. my old MG1b had tweeters inside but the newer 1.6 had tweeters out.
agree on 57s, no highs, no lows but a glorious midrange.
i preferred the 63, crosby modded (no covers, no protection, braced and on stands) or late production.
perversely, i'd rate the stax f81 and first martin logan cls higher.
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 22, 2020 11:38:37 GMT 12
sub - that sounds like an interesting house (I do architectural work). I'd say that a non-rectangular 'room' would offer some advantages - no wall-wall standing wave resonances (bass boom/boost), similarly (mostly) no floor-ceiling standing waves. Of course, you might still have other normal problems - eg. glass surfaces (curtains, tick). So, I wouldn't have expected excess bass - maybe Gib walls (ie. lightweight framed, hollow NZ wall panels) or the living space extension space under the upper 'mezzanine' floor is part of the listening space?
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 22, 2020 11:45:46 GMT 12
Graham - back in 2017 you posted about improving your room, (with pics) - did you end up changing anything much, or at all? (Aside from TV.) ie. spkr placement, seating placement?
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Post by Graham on Aug 22, 2020 12:07:14 GMT 12
Hi Owen The only recent change has been the removal of the speakers attached to the sides of the TV screen. These were used just for home theatre in conjunction with the small sub. I have made up a switching box that allows me to select analog or digital source to my Monitor Audio speakers.
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Pundit
Post by peter0c on Aug 22, 2020 13:43:34 GMT 12
A glorious Saturday in Auckland with much to do outside. Must continue with painting the house I thought until I got distracted by the interview with Saint Nelson was posted by Owen, and now this discursive discussion about room treatments. First off nearly all modern houses have comparatively low ceilings (so do old houses in the UK as any visitors over say 5 foot 9 quickly discover) which is a problem and therefore have a relatively low overall volume, which is another problem. So I have a simple suggestion - raise your ceilings! I have a 1910 Kauri villa with 10 1/2 foot ceilings and apart from contolling bass nodes and window rattles, I don't have major problems with reflections etc - or at least so will I claim. My TV also remains squarely between my speakers because I like watching music DVDs, so I am an outlier on this too. We generally have to live with the hand or house that God gave us but help is to hand. God also gave us via our brain a spectrum analyser. In real life that's what we use to filter out annoying and extraneous sounds e.g. listening to conversations in a noisy restaurant. In the end this might get tiresome and you leave. Conversely if you are not tired (assuming reasonable gear) after an extensive listening session at home, then it is unlikely that you have significant refections problems. The same is true in concert venues, all of which with even the same musicians will sound different. Our brains and ears can accomodate for this and it sounds just fine, if just a little different. Another insight into our ears, eyes and brains department might be of interest to head hifi persons. You get a weird feeling when you move your head whilst listening through headphones. The ambient information changes that you would expect from such movements if listening to speakers or at a concert just isn't there. It's a bit like to listening to speakers in an anaerobic chamber - good for design purposes but not much fun or conducive to drinking wine. There has to be some interaction between the source (musicians at a concert or speakers at home) and the venue for the music to sound real. So my argument is that we should get the basics right (choice of equipment and placement in the room), control for bass nodes and have plenty of soft furnishings / curtains and not worry quite as much about reflective surfaces. As a generalisation I think conventional speakers should be placed facing the long axis i.e. against the shortest wall. Conversely I think that planar (Quads, Maggies etc) and open baffle speakers should be placed against the long wall. This doesn't seem to be the case in the commercial photos above. You could spend crasy money on room treatments which will make a qualative difference. But the simple question is, can you sit down for 2 - 3 hours listening without getting overly tired and blowing your spectrum analyser? If so save your money and get a new DAC which is where the only real hifi improvements have been made in oh the last 20 years!
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Post by sub on Aug 22, 2020 14:10:03 GMT 12
Owen Y - yes it is an interesting design, which piqued our interest and influenced the buying decision. However, having lived there for ten years, there are some shortcomings - difficult to place furniture due to odd shaped rooms; lack of internal storeage, prompting me to enclose one of the verandah and put in cupboards. And also in that regard are thankful for a 5.5x3.2 shed used by original owners as accomodation prior to building main house. Holds surplus furniture, overflow of books, my LP collection, space for the ultrasonic RCM, and storage for all our home preserves from each years fruitful harvest! Re bass, on reflection, the excess bass is most annoying when watching movies etc on tv, when the soundtrack often obscures the dialogue (or is that an age related issue!!) And yes, the space under the mezzanine bedroom is part of the listening area - although the listening position is about half way between spkrs and rear wall in the kitchen.. The upstairs bedroom was originally an open mezzanine, but the people we bought from had installed a gib lined wall to fully enclose it. Though there are two large open rectangles, like unglazed windows, but with light wooden shutters, opening from the bedroom to the void space over the central living area. peterOC - be interesting to have a thread about Dacs.
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Post by michaelw on Aug 22, 2020 15:20:03 GMT 12
generally agree with peter above - get the basics right first. but there have been more improvements in the last 20 years than just dacs.
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Pundit
Post by peter0c on Aug 22, 2020 16:07:50 GMT 12
My subjectively best sounding amplifier is a improved 1928 Loftin-White design. (In a generous moment I would make an exception for First Watt amplifiers.) Not the best speakers but pretty close are Tannoy, which hail from the late 1940s as indeed do I. QED?
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 22, 2020 16:08:21 GMT 12
Getting the basics right - first on the list would/should be room placement (of speakers & listening seat), wouldn't you say? Then if we are trying to maximise/optimise the 'stereo' experience, then we need to consider room reflections, surface finishes, toe-in, furnishings, etc. Unfortunately, the typical NZ home has lightweight framed & lined walls/ceilings/floors, that mess up LF response a lot more (than masonry or concrete homes & apartments). I don't think I'd last long in an anaerobic chamber Panel dipole spkrs on the short wall, would normally provide more space for the mandatory front wall separation, do you think??
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Post by Citroen on Aug 22, 2020 16:12:11 GMT 12
So, will such a space hinder or enhance the sound, and if it hinders (I think my set up is a little bass heavy - but believe that is because I m unable to move speakers any further away from back wall.). There is of course a large expanse of glass in wall behind spkrs, but heavy drapes cover that at night. Difficult to take clear photos with bright morning sun streaming in. I always thought that bass went pretty much through glass, and that even a curtain wouldn't do much to the bass, or do you find that its tamed/better with the curtains drawn sub?
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Post by cartridgeguyonline on Aug 22, 2020 17:12:45 GMT 12
Let me leap to the defense of the poor old ESL57, whilst fully admitting that they are not to everyones taste. I apologise for a lack of photos as my room and setup is very difficult to photograph. My room is roughly square with a protruding long narrow wardrobe/ guitar storage cupboard along one wall effectively making that a short wall.Originally I did have the system set up with the speakers and all the gear in the middle lined up along the long wall and backing onto my LP shelves, but have since changed the arrangement to the Quads at the short end of the room 1/5 of the distance along the room. I have then placed the mono power amps close to the speakers with short spkr cables (harmonix atm).I then have long lengths of audioquest ? running back to the preamp/ turntable and Cd player which is all behind the listening chair(so I dont have to look at the fugly turntable). One of the largest difference made to my listening room was with the choice of chair. my initial chairs were a pair of 50's rolled arm jobbies were are lovely but sucked up the top end too much, really deadened the sound. Then tried a pair of swedish designed deck chairs but they were too low, next up is an open wicker type chair I found at nood. Yes there is only one chair in my listening room.
So back to the ESL57. I have found them to work very well in a small room as they are effectively null in the plane of spkr so can go very close to side walls, which also helps the bass (which is of very good quality being quick and fast but not boomy : i.e Ported spkr afficianados will not be impressed.) Treble I would describe as sufficient but they are definately not bright spkrs though amplification does make a huge difference in this regard. They are my spkr of choice though ive not heard 63's at home, but have had a couple of instore sessions with 2905's which I enjoyed. I suspect the 57's will see me out especially with colinf protection cct modifications. In case they dont I have a pair of keesonic kubs as back up and another pair of Roberts SS80 downstairs as party spkrs in the lounge.
Will try to add some photos at some stage...
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Post by Citroen on Aug 22, 2020 17:28:39 GMT 12
I haven't heard the 57s for almost 40 years now, but it was one of those aha moments that helped set me on this hifi journey. Glorious male vocals.
I wonder what a stacked pair would sound like!
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Pundit
Post by peter0c on Aug 22, 2020 18:00:54 GMT 12
Quad, Tannoy and Magnepan owners seem to be the most loyal and the least likely to trade in or upgrade. That should tell us something. Owen I agree with your placement comments but have found that Megnepan speakers at least of the planars work best on the long wall. They, electrostatics and OBs are not known for excessive bass anyway so low frequency placement problems are much less likely. Kiwi living rooms are mostly generously sized so if there is room experiment. You may have noticed in UK real estate / home improvement TV programs just how skinny most UK rooms are? Although often okayish inside I've never seen a UK home with any outside architectural merit. Don't get me started on pebble strewn walls!
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Post by Citroen on Aug 22, 2020 18:13:30 GMT 12
I don't think I'd last long in an anaerobic chamber Panel dipole spkrs on the short wall, would normally provide more space for the mandatory front wall separation, do you think?? No-one would last long in an anaerobic chamber! Unless you're an anaerobic oxygen less organism like Clostridium... But an anechoic chamber wouldn't sound so good either.
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Pundit
Post by belbo on Aug 22, 2020 19:27:18 GMT 12
I was really surprised when I’ve first listened to a pair of ESL57 on how good they sounded: I was expecting something of a vintage sound and on the contrary they sounded incredibly natural and detailed, in a lot of ways much much better than a lot of modern speakers. I could easily live with them only problem is their size/shape that can be difficult to integrate in a living room like ours, I’ve seen people managing them in special ways however (someone I knew hanged them on the wall!).
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Pundit
Post by neilsan on Aug 22, 2020 20:37:27 GMT 12
Try again. Sub............I have Image 412/2's and found them rather bassy/one note boomy in our old house with old timber floors, using the spikes supplied. I bought a set of Herbie's Gliders and put them under the spikes.I'll never go back to the spikes only.Bass and mids cleaned up. Well the whole sound did.And I can easily pull the speakers out into the room for serious listening. Love them.Worth every penny. herbiesaudiolab.com/products/cone-spike-decoupling-glider?variant=12645103403063
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 22, 2020 22:07:54 GMT 12
I wonder what a stacked pair would sound like! I've heard stacked ESL57s driven by Dynaco amps. I don't recall falling in love completely but I do remember thinking I'd never heard Maria Callas sounding so seamlessly convincing - yes the ESL57 midrange was enough to want to have a pair.
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Pundit
Post by cartridge on Aug 22, 2020 22:26:57 GMT 12
Quad, Tannoy and Magnepan owners seem to be the most loyal and the least likely to trade in or upgrade. That should tell us something. I have never heard that claim before.
I guess with Quad (AIG) and Tannoy (talent drain and a move towards dropping their Scottish base) being pale examples of what they used to be, would mean that owners wouldn't be as tempted to step up to new models?
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Post by sub on Aug 22, 2020 22:35:44 GMT 12
Try again. Sub............I have Image 412/2's and found them rather bassy/one note boomy in our old house with old timber floors, using the spikes supplied. I bought a set of Herbie's Gliders and put them under the spikes.I'll never go back to the spikes only.Bass and mids cleaned up. Well the whole sound did.And I can easily pull the speakers out into the room for serious listening. Love them.Worth every penny. herbiesaudiolab.com/products/cone-spike-decoupling-glider?variant=12645103403063assume I take a spike out and measure somewhere. I had thought of going to my k MikeA. a fellow DL member, has also recommended Herbie gliders. I’ve heard his Usher Dancers singing gloriously sitting on Herbie Gliders. so impressed, I have a short cut to their website on my iPad, But haven’t pulled the trigger yet. My spkrs are refurbished KEF 104/2s, renowned for excellent bass as the main enclosure, front ported, is virtually a large passive subwoofer, with mids and tweeter in their separate enclosure mounted on the front baffle. They do have spikes fitted, they are enclosed in rubber boots. i believe the spkrs would sound better about 1m off the back wall, but that is not practical in shared space. I have managed .500mm. Looks like Herbie will go on the shopping list! just been to the Herbie website, and now I remember why I hadn’t ordered sets before. They come in several thread sizes! How do you measure the thread size? I had thought of taking one to my local ITM, but feel embarrassed about asking their help, then not buying there!
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Post by cartridgeguyonline on Aug 23, 2020 8:14:45 GMT 12
Hi Sub,
Re thread sizes: I assume the herbies things screw into where the spikes would be on your spkrs ? In which case all you need to do is get an engineer or supplier like blacks to measure the thread. Or take one spike into ITM and ask for a bolt or cap screw the same size, which will cost you a bolt or a cap screw but at least then you will know the thread size.
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Pundit
Post by neilsan on Aug 23, 2020 9:32:51 GMT 12
I just bought the ones that are in the link I put up.Left the original spikes in and the gliders fit under the spikes.
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Post by Graham on Aug 23, 2020 9:36:40 GMT 12
I've never been a fan of spikes under any hifi equipment. All of my speakers ( Tannoy, Mission and now Monitor Audio ) had the option of spikes but to my old ears sounded best on the supplied hard rubber feet sitting on carpet over concrete.
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 23, 2020 11:35:27 GMT 12
So, will such a space hinder or enhance the sound, and if it hinders (I think my set up is a little bass heavy - but believe that is because I m unable to move speakers any further away from back wall.). There is of course a large expanse of glass in wall behind spkrs, but heavy drapes cover that at night. Difficult to take clear photos with bright morning sun streaming in. A couple of thoughts... The space with the spkrs in could be OK sound-wise, providing the glass is draped. The ceiling is sloping (I think) & the side walls are angled/non-rectangular, which should almost eliminate LF standing waves (boominess) & the seating central area, being a separate tall volume, should again avoid bass resonances. Not sure how the opening between would 'project' the sound outward, but again I wouldn't expect reinforced bass. So yes, the proximity to the outer front wall could be why you get strong bass. Kef recommend 0.5m from rear wall & 1m from side walls. Additionally, I see from the Kef specs that the 104/2 is (oddly) designed so that the ideal listening ear height is 1.2m (quite high) at around 3m distance - see 104/2 owner's manual. With your listening distance being I think, greater than 3m & seating position lower than 1.2m (normally), then HF balance might be likely be weaker than ideal. Does the tonal balance improve when you stand up? So, what to do....? - Tilt the speakers down a bit? If you sit say 4.5m away, tilt up the rear of the cabinet as much as say ~25mm - but that might be unstable! (I have a HiFi News review somewhere of the 104/2s, will see if I can find it...)
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Post by sub on Aug 23, 2020 12:44:12 GMT 12
I just bought the ones that are in the link I put up.Left the original spikes in and the gliders fit under the spikes. Aha! Didn’t see that before, thanks!
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