Post by Citroen on Aug 23, 2020 13:47:08 GMT 12
So, will such a space hinder or enhance the sound, and if it hinders (I think my set up is a little bass heavy - but believe that is because I m unable to move speakers any further away from back wall.). There is of course a large expanse of glass in wall behind spkrs, but heavy drapes cover that at night. Difficult to take clear photos with bright morning sun streaming in. A couple of thoughts... The space with the spkrs in could be OK sound-wise, providing the glass is draped. The ceiling is sloping (I think) & the side walls are angled/non-rectangular, which should almost eliminate LF standing waves (boominess) & the seating central area, being a separate tall volume, should again avoid bass resonances. Not sure how the opening between would 'project' the sound outward, but again I wouldn't expect reinforced bass. So yes, the proximity to the outer front wall could be why you get strong bass. Kef recommend 0.5m from rear wall & 1m from side walls. I still can't see a wall of glass doors (unless its double or triple glazed) being anything but a bass trap.
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 23, 2020 14:19:46 GMT 12
The glass is a HF reflector & LFs tend to go straight through lightweight elements like this. But there is a bit of floor-wall LF reflection/reinforcement near the spkrs & a ceiling that is (I think) inclined toward the listening seat outside this 'alcove'. Combined with also some HF attenuation due to miscell. furniture, door openings, etc. A bit of speculation here...
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Post by RdM on Aug 23, 2020 21:25:14 GMT 12
Re bass, on reflection, the excess bass is most annoying when watching movies etc on tv, when the soundtrack often obscures the dialogue (or is that an age related issue!!) And yes, the space under the mezzanine bedroom is part of the listening area - although the listening position is about half way between spkrs and rear wall in the kitchen. Hi, nice pictures, I have friends who have a two storey house that is like two hexagons joined at one facet. It would be interesting to see a picture from further back, maybe from up high, showing the listening area outside / in front of the alcove that the speakers are in. What would happen acoustically if the speakers were placed at the corners of the entrance to that alcove? (TV placement could be a difficulty ... )
Some friends have bought this place in Dunedin, having sold up in Auckland. Where would you put the speakers? I'd think near or just inside the corners leading into that curved bay, for a start... could such apply to you? And for Owen, the architectural drawings of the time, 1931. It might be worth experimenting with speaker placement disregarding the problem of TV placement for the moment. I can imagine they could sound a bit bit bass heavy or boomy where they are ... Would it be worth moving them around for just music, first? Form then to follow function?
Could the TV be on a stand with wheels or castors, brought out when wanted but still be able to be walked around even when centered? Not my business, but just thoughts! ;-)
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 23, 2020 22:01:38 GMT 12
That room pictured above could be one of those rare situations where (i) spkrs could be best placed on the diagonal as you say & (ii) the room virtually has no rectangular-facing walls, ie. no standing waves. If music reproduction was the only criterion, I'd try setting up diagonally.
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Post by RdM on Aug 23, 2020 23:51:12 GMT 12
Re bass, on reflection, the excess bass is most annoying when watching movies etc on tv, when the soundtrack often obscures the dialogue [...] And yes, the space under the mezzanine bedroom is part of the listening area - although the listening position is about half way between spkrs and rear wall in the kitchen. Hi, nice pictures, I have friends who have a two storey house that is like two hexagons joined at one facet.. I hope this is sufficiently anonymous, a view of their lounge, tall curved cabinet Jamo loudspeakers, albeit fairly close to the rear wall. Behind that camera position the room continues to the kitchen and dining area, open plan, perhaps almost as long, still with vaulted ceiling. That middle picture is actually standing at a middle anteroom, another cell, so sort of like a T with facets. Behind that the corridor to the other hexagon. It sounds pretty good ... a huge space that the Jamo's are able to fill, although they don't often play them that loud.
They may have brought the speakers out from the wall a bit since, but it didn't sound particularly bass heavy. Gear is hidden away in a cupboard. Nice place to visit! ;=})
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Post by sub on Aug 24, 2020 11:49:44 GMT 12
OwenY - yes ceiling in “alcove” slopes, from 2.1m at outside wall to 2.7m at junction to “inner” space. When casual music listening or watching tv/movies etc, we sit on couch about 4.5m from spkrs. However, for serious listening, I pull out an armchair and sit at the apex of an equal sided triangle with speakers at base, say 2.4m. The chair puts my ears about level with the top of the spkr cabinet. And yes, there is a difference in sound either when standing or sitting, but not able to experiment with that now due to lack of sunshine days. We very conservative re use of electrical appliances during inclement weather in order to conserve the life of our battery bank (solar power only here). We are probably a bit more cautious than we need to be, but given replacement cost of $6-7K for batteries probably a sensible decision. I note a couple of other DL members have talked of their experience placing speakers closer together. Will try that on day. Mine are 2.4m apart, measured from tweeter to tweeter. RdM - the photos on original post were taken from upstairs bedroom. The open plan inner hexagon is approx 8m x 8m at its widest point, so the entire living space is about 10.5m long including the “alcove”. Ethernet angled inner walls does maker spkr placement difficult. Your suggestion about placing them at the narrow “waist” points, where alcove meets inner hexagon, could work, except they would be too far apart, approx 3.5m, and with the further complications of a Stanley woodrange being close to the R waist point, and use the being a door also near the same point, leading to a passage to our bathroom/toilet/laundry spaces. So I think I will leave things as they, except will experiment with space between spkrs, and save som dollars to buy some Herbie Gliders - $27US each x 8!
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 24, 2020 13:21:36 GMT 12
Your suggestion about placing them at the narrow “waist” points, where alcove meets inner hexagon, could work, except..... I think that was RdM's suggestion I suggested 0.5m out from front wall when listening (as per KEF owner's manual). I'm surprised at that, as the 104/2s are 1.2m high? However, if so, that would be close to KEF's recommendation - according to KEF, at 2.4m distance, ear height is ideally 1.075m.
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 24, 2020 13:32:59 GMT 12
From a KEF 104/2 brochure: And also KEF 'installation Instructions'. (Unusually, they are designed to 'beam' slightly upward, at ~10deg.)
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 24, 2020 13:47:41 GMT 12
sub's interesting room (subject to correction ):
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Post by sub on Aug 24, 2020 14:34:00 GMT 12
OwenY, yes was RdM suggestion. I guess my reply to his comment didn’t stand out from my reply to yours in the para above. No worries.
Am surprised by the diagram from KEF, hadn’t seen that before.
When on the couch ears are slightly below tweeter level, so that could explain occasional lack of dialogue clarity when watching the tv screen.
I sat in my listening chair beside. a spkr and confirms my ear is just level with top of speaker. However, if I slump down in chair ear drops a bit. Must each out for that next listening session.
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Post by michaelw on Aug 24, 2020 15:06:59 GMT 12
interesting room Rdm ! what are the dimensions ? initially i would forget teh alcoves and try setting up as per regular square/rectangular room, staying away from the boundaries. alertnatively try the suggested diagonal placement. remember to keep your listening seat away from room boundaries too.
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Post by RdM on Aug 24, 2020 17:49:57 GMT 12
and with the further complications of a Stanley woodrange being close to the R waist point, and ... a door also near the same point, Ah, now I can see it as a wood-range stove, a friend has one. With presumably a wicker log basket beside it? At first it just looked to me like a piece of dark furniture, therefore perhaps moveable.
I was wondering about a photo from above that showed the main inner room & couch as well as the alcove and speakers, to get an idea of scale. I really like the idea of non square, faceted, hexagon or even geodesic dome rooms and houses!
You say you can't move them away from the floor much more, but I wonder if even 15-20cm further out would make a noticeable difference. Perhaps that nice yellow rug could come forward a similar amount? I also wonder if "toe-ing them in" slightly - or quite a lot - rather than pointing them straight ahead, would help with clarity? At the moment you'd be off-axis for both speakers, plus there would be reflections from the angled side walls themselves being reflected to the glass wall. So not only is direct treble energy being lost to you, even at the closer equal triangle 2.4m position, but a lot of it is bouncing around the alcove, with time delays and interference producing peaks and dips, so-called 'comb filtering'.
I can imagine dialog losing clarity with such reflections around the alcove jumbled out in to the main room!
Plus, lack of on-axis treble will make the overall sound appear to be a bit bass heavy, especially if you're turning up the volume to regain that treble.
If part of a hexagon, the angle between the glass wall and each side alcove wall is 60 degrees. You write that the tweeters are 2.4m apart.
If your serious listening position is fairly near the alcove entrance (by the stove, just on the Persian(?) carpet?) then maybe you're getting close to being in an equilateral triangle with them, which also has internal angles of 60 degrees, if ~ 2.4m away from either of them, but a little outside that if 2.4m away from a line drawn between them (base of triangle). (I had to look up how to find the height of a triangle, which for equilateral with 2.4m sides is ~ 2.07m. See tinyurl.com/tri-height ) Some folk aim the speakers at the listening position, others swear by a more aggressive toe-in to cross in front of it. An interesting thing for you might be to align the speakers with the side walls, thus at 60 degrees, probably pointing at about the center of the alcove entrance, crossing over probably at about the edge of the yellow rug or the gap between rugs. That may seem severe, but if your serious listening position is close to there (just on the Persian(?) rug?) then it might be very effective.
You'd be getting much better HF response from being on axis, and diminished reflections from the alcove walls. Then see how it sounds back at the couch. It might be a more spacious sound, but still a lot more HF energy will be getting in to that main room.
Also if off to one side you are more in line with the other side speaker. If that seems a bit severe (although it might be aesthetically pleasing to have them in line with the alcove side walls too) you could try a bit less toe in, to cross over a bit in front of the couch, perhaps even the LH speaker aimed at the RH side of the couch, and vice versa. Or say 30 degrees. Experiment! ;-)
Or even less toe in to aim at the center of the couch. The former will give a wider sweet spot though.
From that same Kef brochure, the horizontal dispersion. You can see that as they are, how much HF loss there is at 30 or 45 degrees off axis. Correspondingly, even say 15° or 30° off axis from the outside of each speaker at present there is a lot of HF energy hitting and reflecting off the alcove walls to the side of the entrance, and like billiard ball angles, reflecting back to the windows and then the opposite alcove walls & yet again, &etc.
So by aiming into the room, especially at 60° to ~ center of alcove entrance, you get full on axis response at serious listening position, much weakened confusing reflections in the alcove, and more on axis treble into the main room as well, even if focused well in front of the couch, and still some improvement if aimed at the couch or opposite ends of it. I'm assuming you can see both Kefs from the couch? I suppose it might look strange if toed in at such an angle from there, but it might still be an improvement, and I'd guess certainly for the serious listening position. If you can pull the yellow rug forward a floorboard or two, and thus the speakers as well as angle them, it might be an interesting experiment as well. I'm not sure much difference those "gliders" are going to make by themselves while the above reflections and direct sound into main room issues exist.
Have fun experimenting! ;=})
Change one thing at a time, check out the sound in both serious and relaxed, moving around, or sitting in the main space positions!
I do recall mere inches, well just a few, making a difference back in the early 90's in my old place, a much larger room than my present one, some 15 x 28 feet, with first Kef 104ab on stands and then later the Sony G333ES pairs.
A whole afternoon of moving, listening, moving again, listening again, but eventually felt that I'd dialed them in pretty well, and felt good about it. And that it had been worth it!
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Post by RdM on Aug 24, 2020 18:43:42 GMT 12
interesting room Rdm ! what are the dimensions ? initially i would forget teh alcoves and try setting up as per regular square/rectangular room, staying away from the boundaries. alertnatively try the suggested diagonal placement. remember to keep your listening seat away from room boundaries too. I assume you mean the one with a curved alcove that friends have bought and are moving in to (out of Auckland) next year: The 1931 plan scan isn't great resolution, but zooming in it looks like the living room and bedroom are the same, 15' x 14'. I'll pass on your advice! ;=}) Present system is two Philips quasi ribbon satellite speakers like my own temporary arrangement on the Sonys I showed above, on good metal stands, with a Wharfedale sub, 10" I think, also nicely finished in wood grain and silver front. That was a persuaded upgrade from a small Panasonic mini-system ... which they are still running them off. Next step is to persuade them into a better amp system, or maybe even a class D or LMxxxx amp that can act as a slave amp ;-) Would have to customise a line out. They don't like hi-fi gear dominating the room, would prefer it almost invisible I think!
I think somewhere inside the edges of the curved alcove might work, if they were willing to have a diagonal couch facing it at whatever distance possible with regard to the door, as well as other seating and furniture elsewhere and around the straight walls. Interesting to speculate.
Else they'd have to be firing down from the back of the kitchen wall, surely, either side of the fireplace, for that almost square space.
And after all they might prefer to look at the view!
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Post by sub on Aug 25, 2020 12:09:22 GMT 12
Thanks everyone, especially Owen Y and RdM. Lots of info to digest and experiment with. Re distance from wall behind spkrs, it is not that changing things there is impossible, it is something to be negotiated with my housemate. I did have them a measured 500mm from wall, but they are not now! It seems while I was away in May they were repositioned about 250mm from wall, and negotiations to change that are at an impasse! Not sure now where I read advice to have spkrs facing straight ahead instead of toed in. I think it was my earlier experiences with Kef uniQ tweeters, which provided for excellent off axis listening with spkrs so positioned. And my long term Mission 753s (now tucked away in the shed) were also designed for front facing positioning. Have found the Kef brochure on line that Owen refers to, and searches also reveal that some experimenting with toe in may be in order, There is also the possibility that the tweeters are not performing optimally, due to 30 year old ferro fluid deterioration discussed on line in many other forums. Will go down that track if I have to. Have a 45 year old test record which I will put through the US RCM and check out tweeter function with that. There are several replacements recommended if necessary. Yes, one change at a time. Will let you know how I get on.
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Post by michaelw on Aug 25, 2020 13:23:42 GMT 12
Rule of thirds (Harry Pearson version) and firing straight ahead is my default speaker position baseline.
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Post by cartridgeguyonline on Aug 25, 2020 15:03:52 GMT 12
...and if you cant do thirds then fifths works as well.
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Post by RdM on Aug 25, 2020 21:26:31 GMT 12
Thanks everyone, especially Owen Y and RdM. Lots of info to digest and experiment with. Re distance from wall behind spkrs, it is not that changing things there is impossible, it is something to be negotiated with my housemate. I did have them a measured 500mm from wall, but they are not now! It seems while I was away in May they were repositioned about 250mm from wall, and negotiations to change that are at an impasse! Not sure now where I read advice to have spkrs facing straight ahead instead of toed in. I think it was my earlier experiences with Kef uniQ tweeters, which provided for excellent off axis listening with spkrs so positioned. And my long term Mission 753s (now tucked away in the shed) were also designed for front facing positioning. Have found the Kef brochure on line that Owen refers to, and searches also reveal that some experimenting with toe in may be in order, There is also the possibility that the tweeters are not performing optimally, due to 30 year old ferro fluid deterioration discussed on line in many other forums. Will go down that track if I have to. Have a 45 year old test record which I will put through the US RCM and check out tweeter function with that. There are several replacements recommended if necessary. Yes, one change at a time. Will let you know how I get on. Thanks, "Sub" ! ;- Sometimes I worry after I've written a post while drinking wine whether it will look good the next day! ;=}) Sometimes even when drinking I'm obsessive about spelling and editing to make it look right. Hopefully you can negotiate with your housemate about positioning, pointing out that the goal is good sound, and acoustics and physics come in to play, and that determining the best positions for best sound (which you will both enjoy and reap the benefits of!) should trump immediate ideas of what the space should look or feel like to live in. I'd go for experimenting with placement to find best sound, and then figure out how to accommodate it and adjust to living in that new arrangement. Decorating it to make it acceptable, pleasant, all that.
Re tweeters, I see that the T33 variant Kef T33 SP1197 in the 104/2 perhaps does have ferrofluid, whereas the earlier T33 SP1074 in my neighbours Kef Carlton III that I have just replaced some capacitors in, isn't ferrofluid cooled. Those replacements, just a few different in each channel after measuring, made a sparkling difference. For instance, in one, a 10uF electrolytic cap across the mid-bass in series with 1R5 measured 15.6uF.
Sucking quite a lot of HF out I thought. Replaced with 10uF polypropylene film cap. Also found high ESR in a cap in the tweeter network. In the end I checked both and just replaced what I thought was needed, different in each.
But each individual case should be investigated on its own.
I gather that the crossover boards might not be easy to get to in the 104/2, so put that in the background...
Positioning fun first? ;=}) What's the distance between the RH edge of the doorway in the right side of the alcove, to the corner & pillar/pole by the Stanley range? Could a speaker fit there without being too disruptive, in the way? Decorated with something on top? You'd maybe have to move the wicker log basket? Could it line up with the alcove wall, and just peek past the pole into the inner room at that angle?
Similarly on the left, if you moved that equipment table further back in to the alcove, could that LH speaker peek similarly into the inner main room, its LH front edge almost flush or a wee bit proud of that pole, pillar, wall? Same as on the right?
The RH one might have a bit of reflection off the Stanley stove end, depending on how high its tweeter is in relation to it. But if that could work, they'd be much more present in the main room. You could still adjust their angles a bit re toward the couch.
You'd walk past them to go in to the alcove space, which would suddenly have a lot more room in it as well. Shared space? Just a few more thoughts over glasses of wine! ;=})
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Post by sub on Aug 28, 2020 16:26:45 GMT 12
A bit of experimenting incorporating ideas from above posts.
A major furniture rearrangement is not on the cards! The equipment rack cannot be pushed back, as there is a large very full bookcase between it and the exterior wall. The only item that could be moved is the small chest of drawers beside the L spkr. That contains 3 drawers of classical and jazz CDs. (It’s mate plus six shelves of CDs occupies part of my bedroom!). It will stay for the time being, until I have finished ripping my CDs to the zen mini Mk3.
First off listened from the approved listening spot, and with spkrs pointing straight ahead, then gradually gave them toe in until they were pointing at me and I could not see the sides. There was very little in quality of the sound between any of the positions, except sound staging was a bit better in the last position - with a caveat!
Played tracks from six CDs, and on five the central image was left of centre, and the L spkr sounded louder than the R. But this was purely subjective, as when standing beside each spkr and putting my ear to each driver in turn, the sound level from each spkr was identical. Empirically I put that down to the space beside the L spkr being much more cluttered - drawers, book case, and a very heavy double width equipment rack.
On the sixth cd, Donavan, Mello Yello, soundstage was perfectly centred. And when I later listened while sitting on the couch, where space is much more open, the soundstage on all discs were nicely centred.
At one point, while in the prime listening spot, I took the speaker grills off to see if there was a difference. There wasn’t, which confirms info from the Kef brochure that the spkrs are designed to perform at best with grills on. But what I found, that with the bass reflex port exposed the amount of air being pumped out was prodigious. It even made my trouser legs flutter! Not something I had experienced before.
Perhaps it is just that I was not prepared by previous experience with spkrs that produce deep bass!
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 28, 2020 17:02:52 GMT 12
So, with the grilles off, your 'bass-heavy' problem is worsened?
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Post by sub on Aug 28, 2020 18:18:43 GMT 12
No,just the same, although I suspect things are probably not “bass heavy”, rather i’ve not previously experienced a loudspkr that produces so much bass! And my amp, a Plinius 8150, is known not to be shy when it comes to reproducing bass notes. Either I get an amp with tone controls, or I learn to enjoy real bass!
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 28, 2020 19:06:14 GMT 12
No,just the same, although I suspect things are probably not “bass heavy”, rather i’ve not previously experienced a loudspkr that produces so much bass! And my amp, a Plinius 8150, is known not to be shy when it comes to reproducing bass notes. Either I get an amp with tone controls, or I learn to enjoy real bass! The proximity to the rear wall will be a key factor - more separation is ideal, according to KEF's manual. The doorway on the RHS in the alcove probably absorbs some R-Ch output.
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Post by RdM on Aug 28, 2020 19:08:56 GMT 12
First off listened from the approved listening spot, and with spkrs pointing straight ahead, then gradually gave them toe in until they were pointing at me and I could not see the sides. There was very little in quality of the sound between any of the positions, except sound staging was a bit better in the last position - with a caveat! Played tracks from six CDs, and on five the central image was left of centre, and the L spkr sounded louder than the R. But this was purely subjective, as when standing beside each spkr and putting my ear to each driver in turn, the sound level from each spkr was identical. Empirically I put that down to the space beside the L spkr being much more cluttered - drawers, book case, and a very heavy double width equipment rack. On the sixth cd, Donavan, Mello Yello, soundstage was perfectly centred. And when I later listened while sitting on the couch, where space is much more open, the soundstage on all discs were nicely centred. This is where a mono CD or LP can be really useful. My (perhaps only? *) go-to one is 1959 Miles Davis Kind Of Blue (2013 Columbia Mono Remaster).
I used it a few days ago after having checked/restored the crossover in the LH neighbours Kef Carlton III to check against the untouched RH one, then again when I had measured (need to lift / unsolder one leg of most components to do that!) and replaced, restored as I thought best, out of whack components in that one. Playing again, I found a strange thing: the LH one seemed slightly louder than the right, even though both had more treble back. Dull before.
I've so far speculated - empirically, as you write - that that might be because I was using the little faulty ex TM Denon system to test them, which I know needs its speaker relay contacts cleaning (half the time it starts up only on one channel) and also I haven't yet done any bias checks, or measured to see if channels are performing equally. So I still have some unknowns yet.
And when you later listened on the couch, all seeming centered, was that with the speakers toed in as before? I mean, was the soundstage and general clarity improved on the couch with them toed in? (By the way, looking again at your 1st photo, downloading it full size (on p.2) I see a small triangle of white at bottom right. Is that the couch? If so, much closer than I thought! I thought it might be well back, hence asking earlier for a pic that included it. So maybe not so far away?.)
Perhaps reflections bouncing around the alcove still might have some impact, even if toed in, but I'd speculated less than if straight ahead.
You think there is a slight improvement toed in, a slight improvement even at the couch?
Could you create some softening on the walls just behind the poles, vertically hanging, maybe some nice tapestry-like or furniture covering material that was attractive, perhaps wrapped around foam, like a single bed sized slab of foam cut in half vertically, to absorb some of those first reflections just inside that the speakers are aiming at (less if toed in) ? When looking to recover 3 chairs and searching on TradeMe, I found some really lovely material, which I'll only use part of, for instance.
Foam slabs cheap. Thin or thick. Like a vertical work of art.
Anyway, I digress (glass of wine again!) Thanks for indulging the suggestions! ;=}) Takes my mind off my own troubles! ;-) <grin!>
* Looking at the flacs I have, I see that that is just the only one I burned to CD. I also have from 1959 (2013 Columbia mono)
Jazz Track (part also known as a film soundtrack) and Porgy And Bess and from 1960,
Sketches of Spain, as a Columbia 2013 mono reissue/remaster as well. The Kind of Blue 2013 Columbia mono CD flac & cover art folder is only 175MB. Anyway, as a substitute, a brief look on YouTube found this in mono - there may be more. At least (I think?) audio quality is able to be better if there is just a still picture. Milestones (Mono Version) · Miles Davis by Sony Music Entertainment (not sure if this will embed here or you'll have to open the link in a new tab.)
Best wishes !!
Thanks!
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Post by RdM on Aug 28, 2020 19:11:54 GMT 12
No,just the same, although I suspect things are probably not “bass heavy”, rather i’ve not previously experienced a loudspkr that produces so much bass! And my amp, a Plinius 8150, is known not to be shy when it comes to reproducing bass notes. Either I get an amp with tone controls, or I learn to enjoy real bass! The proximity to the rear wall will be a key factor - more separation is ideal, according to KEF's manual. The doorway on the RHS in the alcove probably absorbs some R-Ch output.
I agree on both points.
Demonstrating the effects of pulling speakers out from the rear wall to friends (in your case, your housemate) is an undeniable experience.
Then you just have to live with and work around the ideal acoustic placement.
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Post by RdM on Aug 28, 2020 22:07:27 GMT 12
So What I've an earlier copy of this but this will do. Love the cigarette break(s) ! ;=}))
Good on them !
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Post by RdM on Aug 28, 2020 23:10:04 GMT 12
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Post by sub on Aug 29, 2020 0:27:38 GMT 12
Most of my serious listening is done when my house mate is away, so the next time that happens will experiment with bringing spkrs out into the room a bit more. It isn’t that the good lady is averse to music (she is a trained musician and choir singer) but she finds my system too complex for her to use. I guess having to remember which of 9 switches to turn on at the wall could be a bit daunting. 2 x turntables, 1 int amp, 1 phono Pre, 1 b/ray layer, 1 sever/streamer, 1 tv, 1 Freeview stb sat receiver, 1 google Chromecast = 9. Plus there is a double adapter taking the plugs from server and the powered wifi extender to which the server is attached via Ethernet cable! So when she is home it is casual listening only from the couch (and at a volume far from satisfying) but in the evening the system is only turned on to listen to sound from tv, films via Bluray player, or usually old shows via you tube streamed via the Oppo b/r. It is at those times, when soundtracks are poorly recorded that dialogue can become muffled and overpowered by music in the soundtrack. But on BBC e.g. programmes where actors enunciate clearly, that problem doesn’t exist. And to answer the question above, yes the spkrs were left in their final toe in position when listening from the couch and noticing improved centred imaging. Re Owen Y suggestion that R spkr could be having a suck out in sound level from the doorway in R wall, I am surprised by that as the door is always shut, but I guess the door is less dense than a double sided internal wall. Oh, the complexities of sound!
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Post by RdM on Aug 29, 2020 0:50:39 GMT 12
Amazing wonderful update caught on the fly, and I want to re-read again! No wonder so complicated, but (work towards) getting the sound right, nevertheless! Yes OK too complex;- that's one thing. How it all sounds in the acoustic space is another.
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Pundit
Post by peter0c on Aug 29, 2020 11:07:40 GMT 12
Interesting that this paper and most others that I have read (e.g. on the Cardas formula for speaker placement) doesn't take account of reflections from the roof or the height of the roof in determining optimum placement. As I suggested elsewhere the generally low ceilings in NZ homes don't make for a good listening environment. Apart from precise speaker placement my solutions are simply heavy drapes and laden bookshelves.
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Post by Owen Y on Aug 29, 2020 11:18:22 GMT 12
Ah OK, RHS door is closed - something else must be at play then. You mention 2 things (which can be quite different/separate): (i) the LH spkr is louder? (ii) centre images are slightly to the LHS. These 2 can be related or separate. The stereo sound in my room is often louder on the LHS. I think that this is due to either or both of: (i) RHS side wall near the RH spkr is draped with a heavy curtain. (ii) The rear wall (behind the listening seat) has a 45deg angled 'fireplace wall' (instead of a 90deg normal corner).
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Post by sub on Oct 7, 2020 14:07:25 GMT 12
Been living with a sound I’m not entirely happy with, which was accented last night when I played one of my fav Emmy Lou Harris CDs. Her voice was so “screechy” I couldn’t listen! Almost like chalk on a blackboard. So today worked up a sweat toting my old Mission 753s up from the shed, where they sat unused for close to two years. Even from a cold start, Emmy Lou’s voice was back to its best. Been listening for over an hour now and at last everything is back in balance - bass not overpowering the midrange, which has plenty of presence, and highs are pure. Strangely, the L spkr continues to sound louder than the R, but remedy that by moving my listening chair slightly R of centre. Looks as if I will need to replace the tweeters in the Kef 104/2s, but not yet as have some personal expenses to deal with first. Glad about the result (753s will remain for foreseeable future) as I was beginning to suspect my ears had been damaged during my surgery and radiation treatment this year, especially since I currently have a large dressing on my L ear (or pinna as the medicos call it) after having a basal cell carcinoma excised. B.....r, they didn’t get it all out according to the biopsy, so back for more sometime soon!
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