I can confirm it too - Paul came and setup a pair of Magnepan 1.7's today for me to trial, with a PrimaLuna amp, but gremlins were waiting in the wings. We had a bad mains hum and no music from one channel, which Paul narrowed down to the cable from the turntable. Which was a little bizarre as I had been listening to LPs the night before. So we decided to run the Maggies from my Denon receiver until I could sort the cable problem. I removed the Nordost cable from the turntable and at about 3.45 Paul took it away to fix (he'd arrived at 1). Within the hour he rang to let me know he'd found the problem, and about 6.30 he dropped off the repaired cable! Bugger - I'll have to buy them now after that kind of service ;-)

First impressions are quite favourable, bearing in mind that listening has all been via the receiver - a mix of digital music from my HTPC, vinyl from the turntable with a low-end but surprisingly enjoyable MM cartridge while the Troika gets assessed/rebuilt, and an episode of Ken Burns' 'Jazz' series, which was wonderful as is everything he's ever done.

So I have some listening to do, and possibly some auditioning of an amp that is home theatre-friendly, and Maggie-friendly, like the Hegels or Cambridge Audios

Any suggestions how I could best integrate the Maggies and suitable amplification into my home theatre setup?
(Well specced Windows 10 HTPC
Denon AVR X2400H receiver (95w RMS into 8 ohms, but is reputed to handle 4 ohms ok)
Linn LP12/Ittok/Troika (with psu and sub-chassis upgrades) through iFi iPhono3 phono preamp
Paradigm Monitor 11 front main speakers (sensitivity 93db)
Paradigm centre and surrounds
SVS SB-2000 sub through MiniDSP-2x4-HD
Denafrips Ares ii DAC (shipping as we speak))

Initial listening suggests that the Maggies would be ok doing double-duty in a surround sound system. Ideally i wld sell the Denon and Paradigms and replace the amp with a pre/power combo or integrated amp that can do surround sound (if such a beast exists - I guess it's called a receiver ;-).

Any suggestions?
Cheers, Steve

hi,

what model prima luna did you get ?

does it have a home theatre input or tape loop ?
this bypasses your stereo amp's volume control.

you basically hookup your stereo sources to the stereo amp and stereo amp to main speakers.

AV sources go to AVR,
AVR is connected to stereo amp via home theatre input or tape loop.

plenty of guides online,

eg. www.whathifi.com/au/features/how-to-combine-stereo-and-surround-sound-in-one-brilliant-av-system

functional but bit of a palaver to use.

yes, there are new AVRs that sound good with music and HT (eg. Marantz, Rotel, Arcam et al) but be prepared to pay big bucks,

I don't know if such a beast exists either but other members may. There will probably be some kind of compromise in that a good five channel amp would either be very pricey or have Class D amps to match the price of a good stereo power amp. I've indicated that Maggies are great value for money and to continue with that theme in case you end up with a two channel system, in my opinion the Transcendent Sound grounded grid valve preamp is a good buy second hand and I see that you already have a phono stage. Transcendent sell directly and have a new pre/phono variable gain combination called The Slider which you can buy it in kit form or made up. Regarding power amps, Pass Labs won't disappoint but are pricey. The baby one XA25 would be my choice - Jason Parmeter had one on TM for about $10k which is roughly what you would pay for a Pass 30.8 second hand if one comes up. Did Paul have any suggestions?

one such beast...

on run-out, replacement has built in Dirac auto-setup.

great sound but being rotel, it doesn't have the latest HT fripperies and has a few potentially fatal quirks (eg. no analogue video inputs - no legacy formats)

www.listeningpost.co.nz/Products/Amplifiers/Home-Theatre-Receivers/Rotel-RAP-1580-Surround-Amplified-Processor-Receiver-__I.244716__C.27277__N.27756

Hi Michael and Peter - we didn't use the PrimaLuna Evo 200 because the turntable had a problem with mains hum which we have since fixed. Paul has just secured the NZ dealership for AudioControl equipment - and I'm going to try the Concert XR-6 receiver when it arrives. Sounds great on paper, I'll let you know how reality works out ;-)

Paul is a great guy. He will have good advice for you. He did for me when I bought my first good system 20 years ago.

Would be interested in what you think of this new audio control HT amp/receiver when you hear it.

I'll let you know

Ok..update time. I bought the Maggie 1.7's from Paul, but my Denon AVR-X2400H couldn't drive them - it kept overheating and shutting down. I was going to try an AudioControl XR-6, but the shipment was delayed, and I wanted to replace the Denon while it was still functioning ;-) So I bought a 2020 Denon AVR-X3700H and a NuPrime-X MCX-2 stereo power amp (for the Maggie fronts), which I feed from the pre-outs on the Denon. Initial listening after running Audyssey was a bit worrying, as the midrange was sounding quite brittle and harsh, but after making some probably unconventional adjustments, I am now very happy with both HT surround sound and stereo music playback. I wound up turning off Audyssey in the Denon, dialled back the 1 khz, 2 khz, and 4 khz bands by varying amounts in the graphic equalizer, and set the sub's crossover frequency to 150hz ;-) (Obviously I'm no purist) And it sounds great! My digital PC-based files all play through the Denafrips DAC, which works wonders - very impressive for the price. I'm still waiting for the Troika cartridge to come back from Soundsmith. They rebuilt it after finding "Dust shield corroded , Broken cantilever. I would recommend our Sapphire/CL rebuild for $299.00", and it is en route to NZ at the moment. So I'm listening to vinyl via a MM cartridge and iFi iPhono3 stepup which also sounds surprisingly good.

Feel free to critique my unconventional methods, but the proof is in the pudding..maybe I'm easily satisfied ;-)

My only concern at this stage, is that the Denon AVR gets warmer than I would have expected, considering that it isn't driving either the Maggies or the sub. It's only powering the centre and 2 surrounds for HT use, and only acting as preamp for music listening, so I didn't expect it to get more than luke-warm. It's not egg-frying territory, but it's more like luke-hot. It hasn't misbehaved at all, so I guess I'll assume it's not a problem. (Eco mode is on)

Cheers
Steve

Yes Audyssey is crap.

Not surprised the Denon warms up even without the load of main speakers, there's a lot going on under the hood of a modern AVR and it all sucks power/creates heat.

Cheers Michael, that's good to know

The big Denon has 11 poweramps in it, all drawing idle current ie. the current drawn without any sound, a bit like a car engine idling. Although we won’t be able to use that comparison soon as electric cars take over...
Front left, front right, centre, surround left, surround right; surround back left, surround back right, height 1 left, height 1 right, height 2 left, height 2 right.
Phew, that’s a lot of channels to generate heat!

AMR-iFi R&D

It sure is..I was assuming that unused channels didn't draw any current ;-)

Here's my tuppence worth on the original question - the best amplifier to match with your chosen speaker. It could just as well be the other way around and if starting afresh, I'd start with choosing speakers which are more variable than amplifiers first. A quick test which I strongly recommend is to see how they sound at a just noticeable level. For most speakers - especially the inefficient multidriver variety - the soundfield collapses with a loss of bass and treble and sounds like a transistor radio at low volumes. (This is not just the Fletcher Musson hearing curve). All other things being equal (which they rarely are) I'd choose the speaker with the fullest frequency response at a barely audible level. Most retailers and dare I say it enthusiasts demonstrate their gear at full throttle which masks the speakers inadequacies. Same too with typical push pull amps but for a different reason. Push pull amps all have some level of crossover / notch distortion at the point at which the signal changes from positive [the leading valve(s) / transistor(s)] to negative [the other valve(s) / transistor(s)] in the particular channel. In traditional amps the phase change is achieved either through a valve or transistor or through a split secondary bobbin transformer i.e. just wire. The valve or transistor phase splitters are inherently unbalanced or at the least difficult to balance and you can think of it as analogous to car valve timing and guess what, just like car valve timing this does not occur at tdc! It is a fine art getting this just right which is the main attraction of single ended amps which don't have this problem. Clarry Schollum has said that the least crossover distortion that he has measured has been in Ecofan amps nearly all of which use a transformer phase splitter. All very interesting but here is the point about which I may stand corrected. (Feel free). Crossover distortion does not rise linearly with gain. It is therefore as a proportion of the signal at a maximum at low volumes. This is another reason why aficionados turn the wick up. I too turn it up for day to day listening but I would urge prospective purchasers to spend just as much time listening at low volumes. If it sound thin it could be either the speaker or the amplifier but most likely is both. Not a happy story.

Hi Peter, not quite sure what you mean by traditional amps having the negative phase handled by a valve or transistor and the positive phase by a wire. Traditional amps were single ended, so both positive and negative parts of the analogue waveform were handled by the same device.
For crossover distortion, that gets into the amplifier classes, A, AB, B and lately class D. Class A is where the entire signal is handled by one (or more in parallel) devices and has no crossover distortion. Class B is a push-pull amp where the positive phase is handled by one device and the negative phase by another. As the signal swings through zero from + to - and back to +, crossover distortion is generated because transistors and valves aren’t perfectly linear at very low current. So class AB was made to increase the proportion of class A current in an otherwise similar class B amp. Crossover distortion was then made less audible by the fact it occurs at more than low volume than a pure class B amp.
You can have a push pull class A amp as well. Both positive and negative phase devices handle the same signal. Even-order harmonic distortion cancels out, unlike class A single ended.
But class A push pull amps don’t actually cancel even harmonics exactly - only for sine waves. As the music signal goes positive, the device handling positive signals has lower output impedance than the device handling negative signals and so starts to dominate and generate even order harmonics dynamically. Same for the signal as it swings negative, where the device handling the negative phase lowers impedance relative to the positive phase device and dominates, and generates positive even order harmonics. Makers like Krell etc attempt to minimise dynamic class A harmonic distortion by making the output stage as linear as possible and making it large, with a lot of transistors in parallel to restore low output impedance.
Class A single ended amps have no crossover distortion and generate even- and odd-order harmonics in a ratio of roughly 3:2. Adding negative feedback skews this ratio to increase the proportion of less pleasant sounding odd order harmonics, one reason why class A single ended amps with no negative feedback have gained a good following for sonics.
The interstage transformer in Ecofan amps is driven by a single ended class A amp isn’t it? So would generate better harmonics than a typical C-R coupled push pull driver stage. Also the interstage transformer core would be biased so that it is within its most linear permeability region. Transformer drive also suffers fewer clipping issues than C-R coupling and is more reliable, as any grid current from gas in the output valves is shunted to the low impedance bias network. (I get around this by using direct drive from a cathode follower, or auto bias.)
Class D amps avoid crossover distortion by having the output transistors either be fully on or off in a pulse width arrangement running at RF frequencies. An output inductor integrates the RF switching pulses into the audio signal. It’s a very efficient amp and generates only a small amount of heat relative to the next most efficient class B. Class D amps have advanced in leaps and bounds in the last 5 years or so and are becoming more commonplace. Denon have been using Qualcomm class D amps in their latest stuff.
I like speakers to sound relatively balanced at barely perceptible volume as well. Multi-driver systems do seem to sound less balanced to me this way. At very low volume a class B amp will be generating maximum crossover distortion. The class AB amp will still be in class A and sound good. The SE amp will have its lowest distortion and sound even better. The class A push pull amp will have lowest distortion of all as at low outputs both devices have similar output impedance. The class D amp will still sound ok.
Most Denon AVRs employ class AB amps so they still generate a little heat at idle.

AMR-iFi R&D

Thanks for the clarification and detailed explanation Colin and yes I meant traditional Class AB push pull. All Ecofans were triode class A (the output stage switchable to ultralinear for p-p), no negative feedback and direct coupled. The drivers are class A El95, ECC82 or 417a. The interstage transformers were centre tapped and one of the secondaries I think counter-wound to provide the phase shift, instead of using a valve. Ringing can be a problem (corrected with a snib) with these transformers so again no free lunch. I strongly prefer single ended amps which does reduce the choice of speakers but then again speakers requiring high current most often don't perform well at low volumes, my other test.

“In traditional amps the negative phase is achieved through a valve or transistor whilst the positive phase is just wire.” Could you give an example?
So, were Ecofan amps mostly direct coupled or transformer coupled?
The Nuprime amps sound interesting with their class A-D circuitry.

AMR-iFi R&D

Stevie. I read on asr some time ago that the denons run very hot. Even when running power amps because the avr doesn't turn off the inactive channels. Apparently this has been fixed in their more recent models, but not all of them. Starting in their higher end models, I believe. Perhaps have a look on asr.
A big deal was made of this in the past, so I think they might have listened.
Is your stereo amp working out OK with the new speakers?

All but the earliest of p-p Ecofans (e.g. Audion 14, Super Audion Mk I and II which had ECC82 phase splitters) had transformer phase splitters. His signature was no capacitors in the signal path and no negative feedback. At the time in NZ practically the only commercially available competition were Quicksilver and Austin & Michelson (and of course Quad, Leak and a few other Brits but unfortunately Dynaco ST70s weren't readily available) which haven't really stood the test of time.  He made the last of the Ecofan p-p amps including OTL in the late 1990s and thereafter exclusively made single ended amps including OTL and what he called Balanced Single Ended using a conventional p-p ( with no phase splitter) OT. The latter two were never produced commercially and the BSE probably wasn't a goer as it used Type 50 valves.

Hi Chilli - thanks for the info. I moved the Denon to a roomier shelf (more space above it) which has helped. Yes I'm pleased with the nuPrime amp - it drives the Maggies well, and integrates with the home theatre nicely. I'm not very articulate (and probably not experienced enough) to describe the character of the sound ;-)

OK, update time. Having lived with my system for a couple of months, I have a better idea of what works well, and what doesn't. I'm pleased with the integration of the Maggies and the NuPrime amp into home theatre applications, and the following comments mainly relate to music listening.
Good recordings sound anywhere from amazing to good, and poor to mediocre recordings sound poor to mediocre. What a surprise. Who'd have thunk it? Rubbish in, rubbish out. But I'm wondering if the sound characteristics that bother me most, could be improved by a more refined amp. I'm finding the mids and highs often take on a hard, gritty, dimensionally flat quality - especially in massed, wall-of-sound music. It doesn't seem to be source dependent - I'm very happy with the reproduction of well-recorded vinyl and digital files, particularly with open, minimalist, close-miked recordings. Of course, this probably reflects my musical preferences too - but if I can sweeten and open up those areas I'm not so happy with, I will.
I'm thinking of trying other amps (tube? Hegel?) Budget to around $7k.  Any suggestions welcome ;-)

Jan 22, 2021 12:46:28 GMT 12 steviewunda said:

I'm thinking of trying other amps (tube? Hegel?) Budget to around $7k.  Any suggestions welcome ;-)

Can you get a PureAudio ONE Integrated to listen to/demo in yr system?   

(OK, a ONE is about $10k, but suspect once you've heard it, you'll 'disperse' other gear to find that $3k  )   

"I see music as a lifetime affair." [Rory Gallagher]

Thanks Foveaux - I'll check it out

Endorse the PureAudio suggestion. But, have you sorted hearin aids yet, Steve? Maybe do that first if you haven’t!

The PureAudio reviews sound wonderful, but $7k was pushing it - let alone $10k. And as Sub pointed out, I have hearing aids to purchase too ;-) I was booked in for a fitting today, but had to postpone it due to cold-blocked sinuses and inner-ear plumbing, which the audiologist said would prevent an accurate fitting.

Has anyone had any experience with the Kinki amps, as at www.referenceaudio.co.nz/kinki-studio
There are links to some interesting reviews, especially the 6Moons one at 6moons.com/audioreview_articles/kinki6/
(if you can navigate the website, and his unique style of prose), and also one at soundnews.net/amplifiers/power-amps/kinki-studio-ex-m7-power-amp-review-a-natural-bare-knuckle-pugilist/

Another idea to try, Steve, is a good pre-amp with AV bypass.

I have a MCX-2 plugged into an Audia Flight FLS-1 pre and Usher mini-Dancer 2s and I haven't found any grittiness or lack of refinement after 6 months almost constant listening.

Jan 23, 2021 0:13:08 GMT 12 steviewunda said:

Has anyone had any experience with the Kinki amps, as at www.referenceaudio.co.nz/kinki-studio
There are links to some interesting reviews, especially the 6Moons one at 6moons.com/audioreview_articles/kinki6/
(if you can navigate the website, and his unique style of prose), and also one at soundnews.net/amplifiers/power-amps/kinki-studio-ex-m7-power-amp-review-a-natural-bare-knuckle-pugilist/

I tend to agree with the latter & as a result, seldom manage to enjoy this site.

KINKI Studio - we have posted about them recently -
darklantern.proboards.com/thread/2584/kinki-studio-ex-integrated-amplifier
darklantern.proboards.com/thread/2482/kinki-studio-monoblock-power-amplifiers

We'd be interested in your thoughts if you manage to try out a KINKI Studio amplifier.

DarkLantern blog - darklanternforowen.wordpress.com

Excellent suggestion Mike A - I'm using the pre-outs from the Denon AVR to feed the MCX-2, but I assume that means the Denon pre-amp is still influencing the signal. So it would probably make more sense to ensure a good signal is going into the MCX-2 before trying other amps. I presume that would mean that I would connect the AVR pre-outs, the Denafrips DAC and the phono pre-amp to the pre-amp, and pre-amp to the MCX-2 (thinking out loud here - my brain ticks more slowly these days). I guess the pre-amp's AV bypass is for the AVR pre-outs, so the signal doesn't get boosted again?
Do pre-amps come with remote controls? I control my current system with a Logitech Harmony remote, so I would need to make sure the pre-amp was in the Logitech database (still thinking out loud ;-)) Have I missed anything?
The Audia Flight FLS-1 is outside my budget I'm afraid - does anyone have any recommendations for a suitable pre-amp?

Thanks Owen - I contacted Peter at Reference Audio Systems regarding a trial, and this was his response: "No option for a trial, but I’ve never had one not suit or returned - my margin is too small to stock run-in amps for demo"

I think I'll pursue the pre-amp option, as Mike A suggested, so I won't be getting Kinki - for a while anyway ;-)

Jan 23, 2021 14:21:50 GMT 12 steviewunda said:

Thanks Owen - I contacted Peter at Reference Audio Systems regarding a trial, and this was his response: "No option for a trial, but I’ve never had one not suit or returned - my margin is too small to stock run-in amps for demo"

I think I'll pursue the pre-amp option, as Mike A suggested, so I won't be getting Kinki - for a while anyway ;-)

Oh, you mean that Peter has products available for audition at his premises (just Nth of Akld), but they are not normally sent out for trial?

And, you are not located conveniently to be able to visit him?

DarkLantern blog - darklanternforowen.wordpress.com