Post by foveaux on Jun 3, 2017 23:44:02 GMT 12
  Hi Chaps Here’s a pic of my main system, set up at my temporary Dunedin place, en route eventually to Queenstown. Top level: TT: Well Tempered Simplex, Dynavector DV20XH CD: Naim 3.5 + Flatcap power supply Mid level: dbx VENU360 crossover (black unit. Roger Sanders programmed) Sanders pre-amp Belkin Pure AV Power console (for power surge protection) Bottom level: 2 x Sanders Magtech power amps Speakers: Sanders 10e Electrostatic Interconnx/cables: All Sanders, except for Stager Silver interconnx: TT and CD to preamp; and Naim: CD to flatcap Rack: Atacama (bamboo) System evolution: I got serious (hooked) about the quality of audio replay gear in London in 1980. I bought an LP12 and brought it back to NZ. The WT replaced it a few years ago. I also brought back an A&R A60 that was replaced by Naim 92/90 amps, Perreaux 200i, Mapletree and Ecofan (these last two are both valve systems - which I have in storage) I brought back Mission stand-mounts 770s I recall, replaced over the years by Images (Minuettes, 404s, References) Hawthorne Open Baffles and Shahinian Obelisks Some watershed listening experiences that have guided me: I heard Quad valve amps and Quad electrostatic speakers in London - so good. Alas, I could not afford them. There I also heard an active system for the first time: it was Meridian and the speakers were M3’s - the ones with straws in the port! (previously mentioned elsewhere on the forum) the sound was great, but out of budget reach. I heard transmission line speakers, TDLs from memory, and stowed away in my memory the impressive bass from modest enclosures. I enjoyed the Hawthorne open baffle system and that lead me to listening to Martin Logan electrostatics, then to Sanders. The Sanders system realises all the attributes that I reckon are critical for best musical reproduction: the magic that electrostatic speakers are known for (e.g. Quad et al); its an active system; the bass drivers are transmission line loaded and the ESL panels provide dipole dispersion (similar to open-baffle). Additionally, the system has a LMS (Loudspeaker Management System) that includes a digital crossover with a Room Correction System, Digital Signal Processor, and Real Time Analyzer. It has the facility, via microphone recording at the listening position, to measure/check the frequency response of the speakers and room, and you can adjust the frequency response though the processor to achieve best sound. Valves amps provide very satisfying sound - Cooksferry kindly allowed me to listen to his Mapletree valve headphone amp. I bought one too and then it was a short step to the Mapletree pre/power combo - Ultra4SE/Stealth Max mono blocks (KT88s/KT120s push/pull). I scored the Ecofan pre/power combo (6A3s SE), and both these systems were excellent with the Shahinians. I let the Perreaux and Shahinians go to assist funding the Sanders system. Next Step: a new cartridge, most probably another Dynavector further up the chain from the DV20. (I have a Dynavector P75 Mk2 phono amp, but I found the (configurable) phono stage in the Sanders pre-amp is better. cheers, f
"I see music as a lifetime affair." [Rory Gallagher]
"Free - I miss that band, but when I look back, we were very young" [Paul Rodgers]
862 posts
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 4, 2017 17:50:37 GMT 12
Bravo foveaux - that's a good hifi journey & destination 
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Post by cooksferry on Jun 7, 2017 5:16:37 GMT 12
Hi F, good to see your system finally getting out and about. Hopefully the planets will align again sometime this year for me to have another listen , this time in its new home. Couple of questions, How well do you think the Sanders room correction system works against just using your own experience how things should be, and it looks like you have quite a bit of toe in on the speakers...you find that is locking you into a small "sweet spot". ps, shame on me for selling my Mapletree pre or I'm certain I'd have pestered the MAD monoblocks out of your clutches by now 
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Pundit
Post by LinnBoy on Jun 7, 2017 12:54:18 GMT 12
Ah! Now I know who you are foveaux... gidday bud!
I am a non-recovering audioholic, and Ivor is my higher power.
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Post by michaelw on Jun 7, 2017 15:02:59 GMT 12
great speakers the sanders.
i've heard an earlier iteration, the innersound eros and they were much more coherent that any martin logan or similar stat/hybrid.
sidebar;
although unrelated to martin logan's gayle sanders, roger sanders first came up with the idea of a curved stat panel and quickly discarded it as the price paid for the curved panel's wider dispersion was poorer hf and imaging performance.
flat is best !
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Pundit
Post by LinnBoy on Jun 7, 2017 15:39:13 GMT 12
great speakers the sanders. i've heard an earlier iteration, the innersound eros and they were much more coherent that any martin logan or similar stat/hybrid. sidebar; although unrelated to martin logan's gayle sanders, roger sanders first came up with the idea of a curved stat panel and quickly discarded it as the price paid for the curved panel's wider dispersion was poorer hf and imaging performance. flat is best ! Just like the earth...
I am a non-recovering audioholic, and Ivor is my higher power.
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Post by guitardude on Jun 9, 2017 15:00:33 GMT 12
There's probably only 5 of us old enough on the forum to get that joke LinnBoy. Never heard the Sanders but have been racking my brains trying to think of the other manufacturer of ESLs. From Holland or Germany IIRC imported into Akd 80's 90's. Looked a bit like an Apogee styling wise, but cant remember the name of them. Anyone ?
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 9, 2017 15:20:56 GMT 12
Audiostatic? (What's LinnBoy saying?)
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Post by guitardude on Jun 9, 2017 15:24:35 GMT 12
10 points to Owen. I never got to listen to a pair but from memory they were fairly sharply priced and seemed good value. Anyone ever hear them ?
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Pundit
Post by LinnBoy on Jun 9, 2017 16:32:42 GMT 12
I'm just being a P.R.a.T.
I am a non-recovering audioholic, and Ivor is my higher power.
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Post by michaelw on Jun 10, 2017 0:02:56 GMT 12
another linn joke
634 times !
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Post by michaelw on Jun 10, 2017 0:13:38 GMT 12
There's probably only 5 of us old enough on the forum to get that joke LinnBoy. Never heard the Sanders but have been racking my brains trying to think of the other manufacturer of ESLs. From Holland or Germany IIRC imported into Akd 80's 90's. Looked a bit like an Apogee styling wise, but cant remember the name of them. Anyone ? iirc they looked more like an acoustat, tall and skinny ?  there was a greek planar, audio analysis, that looked like an apogee. 
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Post by guitardude on Jun 12, 2017 11:34:25 GMT 12
Yes tall and skinny is how I remember them, the Apogee comparison was referring to the colour of the surround as all the ones I saw were grey.
Acoustats were a bit wider and had a wooden surround that looked like the same wood SOTA's were made from ? What happened to them ?
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Post by michaelw on Jun 12, 2017 12:36:58 GMT 12
afaik acoustat started off making electrostatics in the usa.
in the 1980s they introduced amplifiers
they were bought out late 80s by the hafler company
bought out again in the 1990s, production moved to italy !
this move produced the spectra xx00 series
by the early 2000s it was all over...
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 12, 2017 12:43:04 GMT 12
I believe that Acoustat closed down in early 2000s & that the brand was eventually sold to a Chinese company - but no new developments that I know of. I have listened to a pr of 2+2s here in Auckland from time to time.
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Post by michaelw on Jun 12, 2017 12:47:14 GMT 12
i briefly had a pair of spectra 11 and they were awful ! they encapsulated everything that is bad with a stat/cone hybrid 
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Post by foveaux on Jun 17, 2017 14:09:11 GMT 12
Hi F, good to see your system finally getting out and about. Hopefully the planets will align again sometime this year for me to have another listen , this time in its new home. Couple of questions, How well do you think the Sanders room correction system works against just using your own experience how things should be, and it looks like you have quite a bit of toe in on the speakers...you find that is locking you into a small "sweet spot". ps, shame on me for selling my Mapletree pre or I'm certain I'd have pestered the MAD monoblocks out of your clutches by now Hi Cooks, I've not used the mic/full digital room correction capability yet. But I have adjusted the bass integration by 'ear.' (slight decrease to factory setting, as this room has less dampening - lighter curtains, lower ceiling, barer carpet!) Sound is now set up great for my preferences and much better than when you heard the system it in the previous flat. I will do the full RMS assessment eventually as Im interested to experiment, if nothing else. For toe-in I've followed Roger Sanders recommendation in the system manual - this has proven excellent for me in my listening chair. And it coincides with my golden rule: optimise the 'sweet spot' for your listening chair first. While listening I move about in my chair, albeit minimally - just like with any other system/listener, and I haven't noticed any sound degradation - there is certainly not any 'head in a vice' requirement (who the hell thinks up these dictates? - as you know, Im a bit skeptical about lotsa audio folklore!! and who listens seriously 'off-axis' or out of their chair?). Out of my chair the sound is OK - being dipole dispersion is probably helpful. Here is that item I mentioned from the 2017 AXPONA by the guy from Positive Feedback: "IMHO, the most neutral sound at the show - and by a considerable margin - came from the Sanders Sound Systems team. Their system consisted of Sanders' superb Model 10e ESL/dynamic woofer hybrid speaker system, powered here by, you guessed it, Sanders' crystal-clear Magtech amplifiers ($17K for the speakers and an amp—the second will set you back an additional $5K). The utter absence of low-level colorations and distortions resulted in the most transparent, holographic and captivatingly neutral sound of any room I visited. Tonal accuracy seemed spot on. Regardless of musical genre, the Model 10e speakers and Magtech amps captured the inherent beauty of instruments, voices and their attendant acoustic settings in a wholly engrossing way. Integration of the ESL panel with the dynamic woofer sounded seamless to my ears, with crisp timing and propulsive dynamics. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and posit that this superb little number ranks amongst the most transparently neutral transducers on the fracking planet!"
Lotsa high end systems and speakers there - nice to see Sanders recognised positively in that context keep warm mate, f
"I see music as a lifetime affair." [Rory Gallagher]
"Free - I miss that band, but when I look back, we were very young" [Paul Rodgers]
862 posts
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Post by guitardude on Jun 19, 2017 14:58:44 GMT 12
Had never heard of Acoustat Hybrids and lo and behold theres a pair on TM !
Those Sanders sound the business, where did you get them from ?
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Post by foveaux on Oct 23, 2017 13:34:46 GMT 12
apologies GD I missed your post. I 'intercepted' my Sanders system - Terry at Audio Reference AKL had them packaged up to return to Colorado. When visiting my daughter in Singapore, I had a 'leave pass' for a day while mother and daughter did their shopping - I got entrenched at an audio precinct (about 20 outlets over 3/4 floors) and listened to many systems, from reasonable to astronomical prices. In the Martin Logan outlet I was reminded of Quad, so set about ESL research when I got home = a trip to Terry. Once I'd heard Sanders, it was game over... sanderssoundsystems.com/latest-news/312-october-2017-review-of-sanders-model-10e-electrostatic-speakers-by-robert-e-greene-of-the-absolute-sound
"I see music as a lifetime affair." [Rory Gallagher]
"Free - I miss that band, but when I look back, we were very young" [Paul Rodgers]
862 posts
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Post by Owen Y on Nov 4, 2017 15:17:00 GMT 12
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Post by foveaux on Jan 4, 2021 10:21:08 GMT 12
Recently spotted in the NOV 2020 THE ABSOLUTE SOUND 2021 HIGH END AUDIO BUYERS GUIDE :   Nice... that these endorsements remain in the face of the plethora of new products out there - my Sanders 10e system was bought in Jun 2015. Embarrassingly the Sanders' + TT (Wand 14.4 + Wand Master10.3 + Hana ML: recently 'tuned' when Simon fitted the new Hana) are still in storage after the move to Qtwn December 2018! But the main CD player: Naim CD3.5 + Flatcap power supply has been in constant use with Mapletree valve headphone amp and Beyerdynamic 'phones as the bedroom system. With a tail-wind the new addition (ahem...bedroom) is due for completion by the end of this April... = Sanders/TT recommissioning. Enthusiasm rising
"I see music as a lifetime affair." [Rory Gallagher]
"Free - I miss that band, but when I look back, we were very young" [Paul Rodgers]
862 posts
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Pundit
Post by peter0c on Jan 4, 2021 11:41:36 GMT 12
Interesting comments on the Sanders ensemble and the highly positive review of the Sanders 10e speakers. Equally positive is the Absolute Sound review of the Sanders Magtech amplifier (which is intended for conventional speakers) and I assume also the Magtech ESL amplifier, a close cousin which was designed specifically for the 10e. There is much sense in buying matched as it were amplifiers and speakers speakers from the same manufacturer. This however it not often possible and mismatches are therefore rather too common. The biggest disappointment that I have had is listening to an enthusiast's Magtech paired with a Yamaha NS2000. Both are respectable items in anyone's collection but in combination there was no real bass at all at any volume. What bass there was at high volume had absolutely no natural decay and whatever the instrument sounded like a stick thumping a sofa. It was also impossible to appreciate the lower mids and mids because the lower harmonics were missing in action. There is a moral here I think (heroically damped amplifiers are not a good match with inefficient IB speakers) and possibly explains the enthusiasm for trying new cables, interconnects etc. Anyway this won't be a problem for Foveaux and not only because he has the wonderful Ecofan SE 6A3!
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Pundit
Post by peter0c on Jan 4, 2021 13:02:14 GMT 12
Bad form to reply to your own blog but here goes. The review of the Sanders 10e refers to the absence of reflected sound; since it is a dipole above about 100hz I have my doubts but never mind. The review mentioned Peter Walker's views on reflected sound which were to the effect as long as there is a longish delay - i.e. the speakers being some distance from the rear wall - it won't be a problem as long as the brain has enough time to process it. Whilst this is certainly an oversimplification there is more than a grain of truth. As I have mentioned in DL blogs on room treatments, the brain is indeed very adept at making sense of direct v's reflected sounds and filtering out extraneous stuff. In my opinion (and possibly only my opinion) getting rid of low frequency reverberations is important but other things brought about by awkwardly shaped rooms, hard surfaces etc etc is I suggest of lesser importance. The ear and brain is perfectly capable of separating out say the ambient sound from recordings made in a concert chamber from the ambient sounds caused by our idiosyncratic rooms. It is much the same process that allows us to focus on a conversation from the next table in a noisy restaurant. This article from 'The Economist' might add to our understanding of these processes. www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2020/12/16/sound-engineers-have-better-ways-to-trick-listeners-ears
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Post by foveaux on Aug 16, 2021 11:33:13 GMT 12
Apologies peter0c, sorry I missed your two latest posts.
(Yes, the Ecofan 6A3 amp remains in regular use - very satisfying)
"I see music as a lifetime affair." [Rory Gallagher]
"Free - I miss that band, but when I look back, we were very young" [Paul Rodgers]
862 posts
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Post by foveaux on Aug 16, 2021 12:09:11 GMT 12
Update: My Wand/Sanders system is re-commissioned!  In the mezzanine. (As management determined the new room is indeed a bedroom, per building consent ) I was apprehensive the sound may overpower the mezzanine space, but pleased this is not the case. And the system can 'tailor' the sound to suit the space, via the DSP/crossover.  Top: Wand TT/ Wand Master10.3/ Hana ML; Mapletree Line Router; Mapletree Headphone Amp Middle: left: dbx VENU360 crossover (Roger Sanders programmed), Sanders Preamp, Innuos ZenMini Mk3 + LPSU, right: Naim 3.5 CDP + Flatcap PSU, Belkin Pure AV Power console Bottom: Sanders Magtech Power Amps The door to Never Never Land is re-opened... 
"I see music as a lifetime affair." [Rory Gallagher]
"Free - I miss that band, but when I look back, we were very young" [Paul Rodgers]
862 posts
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Post by Citroen on Aug 16, 2021 13:31:46 GMT 12
The sloping roof would also help with the room acoustics.
Nice floorboards!
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Post by michaelw on Aug 16, 2021 15:08:35 GMT 12
Ultimate transparency Rug time
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Post by foveaux on Aug 16, 2021 17:03:27 GMT 12
Ultimate transparency Rug time  touche Michael.  (I took 'em out of sight for the snap!)
"I see music as a lifetime affair." [Rory Gallagher]
"Free - I miss that band, but when I look back, we were very young" [Paul Rodgers]
862 posts
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Post by Citroen on Aug 16, 2021 17:06:22 GMT 12
Forget about acoustics. Ditch the native american rugs. The floorboards are much prettier.
What are they?
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Post by foveaux on Aug 16, 2021 17:21:42 GMT 12
Forget about acoustics. Ditch the native american rugs. The floorboards are much prettier. What are they? Floorboards: Rimu - reused from old house demo. Rugs: Tunisian (I won't tell management you thought they were native american . Souvenirs from her trip there, about '83 !)
"I see music as a lifetime affair." [Rory Gallagher]
"Free - I miss that band, but when I look back, we were very young" [Paul Rodgers]
862 posts
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touche Michael.