Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 13, 2020 19:52:52 GMT 12
I had a pm from another member about my system and thought I had posted it here but apparently not so here you go. From the top, Michell Gyro SE Audiomods Series 5 Tonearm Lyra Delos Aqvox tonearm cable Aqvox phono stage Kimber KS1130 cable BAT VK3IX preamp Kimber KS1120 cable BAT VK250 power amp Kimber Monacle speaker cable Martin Logan Theos speakers System is balanced from start to finish. I know there is a school of thought that balanced is not necessary and didn't set out to do it that way. I ended up with the Aqvox as part of the journey and guess I have built the system around it from there. Power cables are largely DIY with the exception of an MIT plugged into an Antipodes power board and Oneac transformer for the speakers. The rack is an old Sound Creation stand with sand filled legs and a bitumix based resin injected into the horizontal supports for mass loading. The room is a downstairs bedrom with insulation in the internal walls. I can listen at reasonably high volume if needed without annoying everyone else. The observant among you will notice the wardrobe with the doors removed. This is the only compromise I've had to make in the room. It currently contains my wife's winter wardrobe but conveniently provides damping for the rear soundwaves and most likely acts as a bass trap too. I built some insulation panels for the other side to give it some symmetry. The rear wall has a large window conforming to the live/dead end theory of room acoustics. Speakers are set up according to the Cardas room set up guide. Most of the gear has been bought second hand. I've been through a bit of kit to get where I am. I find if you buy it right and don't like it you can move it on reasonably painlessly. The only thing I miss is a Plinius SA100 MK3 that had to go as it just turned the room into a sauna. I have built a few speakers and subs over the years as well, most are now being utilized in a HT system. The best of which are a set of Zaph ZRT 2.5 way tower speakers. As as much as I like the electrostics I still swap them out once in a while. Nothing else has changed for a couple of years so I guess it works for me.
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Post by Citroen on Jan 13, 2020 22:02:06 GMT 12
Nice! Envious you have a dedicated listening room.
Did you used to have a Project RPM 9 or 10? And Image speakers? I've always liked how the Gyro sounds (and looks).
Not familiar with the Aqvox phonostage. What setting do you run your Delos with?
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Post by Owen Y on Jan 14, 2020 9:18:08 GMT 12
Thanks harvey. That looks a nice room - plenty of depth behind the panels. The Aqvox was interesting I thought, because (i) it has 'balanced' phono circuit & 'current amplification' (the phono cartridge is actually a 'balanced' source) & (ii) includes 50kHz 'Neumann Time Constant in the phono EQ. (I see that Aqvox have MC cartridges - they look a bit like Ortofon MC20/30.)
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 14, 2020 10:24:14 GMT 12
Yes to the RPM9, sold on T/me a while ago, did you end up with it?
No to the Image although the ZRT speakers are veneered with heart rimu so don't look dissimilar.
The Axvox is unique in that when using the XLR input with an MC cartridge it bypasses the loading as it amplifies by current not voltage, below is an explanation from the web.
MC cartridges produce tiny voltages, but they output decent amounts of current from a source impedance that is both low and resistive. This is ideal for use with a current-mode input because such an input is nearly a short circuit. Different MC cartridges react differently to being plugged into a current-mode input, in part depending, of course, on the internal impedance, but the short-circuit loading means the cartridge is inherently damped and resistive loading becomes a nonissue.
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 14, 2020 10:43:59 GMT 12
Thanks harvey. That looks a nice room - plenty of depth behind the panels. The Aqvox was interesting I thought, because (i) it has 'balanced' phono circuit & 'current amplification' (the phono cartridge is actually a 'balanced' source) & (ii) includes 50kHz 'Neumann Time Constant in the phono EQ. (I see that Aqvox have MC cartridges - they look a bit like Ortofon MC20/30.) Thanks Owen - yes you beat me to it re the MC loading. An interesting approach which makes sense but I believe is usually only available on more expensive phono stages. That said when I purchased mine it was $995 Euro but they are now twice that price.
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 14, 2020 10:55:30 GMT 12
Re speaker placement, I faffed around with this quite a bit but then decided to set up ala Cardas and moved the listening position instead. This had a big impact on bass response and soundstage. I believe listening position to be just as important but often overlooked.
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Post by Citroen on Jan 14, 2020 10:56:23 GMT 12
I've owned a few Pro-jects but never the RPM-9. I think I might have picked up an Eminem album from you out East about 10 years ago.
That Aqvox sounds interesting but I got a bit lost, physics not being my strong point...will have to read further.
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Post by Owen Y on Jan 14, 2020 11:48:18 GMT 12
Re speaker placement, I faffed around with this quite a bit but then decided to set up ala Cardas and moved the listening position instead. This had a big impact on bass response and soundstage. I believe listening position to be just as important but often overlooked. Indeed, I think so, when it comes to room location & room 'modes' (LF standing waves, which might range from 30-70Hz depending on LxWxH dimensions), listening position & speaker positioning are similarly critical. That Aqvox sounds interesting but I got a bit lost, physics not being my strong point...will have to read further. The phono cartridge as a 'source' is not Grounded (unlike most source components), the 'generator' is 'floating', symmetrical, 'balanced', in relation to a 'single-ended' system 'Ground'.
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Post by cartridgeguyonline on Jan 14, 2020 15:47:50 GMT 12
Nice System,
That was me with the Pm btw as I didnt know there was another Gyro owner on here. Interesting also that we have our systems set up in similar ways, although my source components are behind the listening chair (so I dont have to look at the Gyro...) and my power amps between my Electrostatics at the other end of the room. No Martin Logans for me though as im with Esl57s. (really rate MLs though as have had several sets over the years). No CD set up though Harvey, thats very purist of you.
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Post by Citroen on Jan 14, 2020 16:18:47 GMT 12
ESL57's, now that's hard core!
Harvey probably has a digital/streaming system hidden away somewhere?
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Post by Citroen on Jan 14, 2020 16:24:03 GMT 12
That Aqvox sounds interesting but I got a bit lost, physics not being my strong point...will have to read further. The phono cartridge as a 'source' is not Grounded (unlike most source components), the 'generator' is 'floating', symmetrical, 'balanced', in relation to a 'single-ended' system 'Ground'. Sorry, still sounds like Klingon to me. What I'm more interested in is why people don't have phono preamps based on this design cf the traditional setup. I'm, guessing there must be a few negatives to that design.
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 14, 2020 17:03:33 GMT 12
I've owned a few Pro-jects but never the RPM-9. I think I might have picked up an Eminem album from you out East about 10 years ago. Ah yes, I do recall selling that LP but hadn't joined the dots. Only really liked one song on that LP but ended up regretting selling it and bought another.
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 14, 2020 17:15:59 GMT 12
ESL57's, now that's hard core! Harvey probably has a digital/streaming system hidden away somewhere? Previously mentioned HT setup is used for CD duties. Another TV/stereo system upstairs has the recently bought Topping DAC for music from a phone. My better half reckons I have a problem but I'm not sure what she is on about? As mentioned in another thread I have a Denafrips Ares on order. Unsure what transport to get, budget is up to $1000. Am keeping an eye on T/Me but top of the list is a Cambridge Audio CXC. Would be interested in anyone's thoughts?
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Post by Citroen on Jan 14, 2020 17:17:55 GMT 12
Stan? He's so much more than this track.
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Post by Citroen on Jan 14, 2020 17:19:48 GMT 12
CD transport? Are people still buying these?
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 14, 2020 17:26:48 GMT 12
Stan? He's so much more than this track. Yes - and I know I should drag it out for another listen...
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Post by Citroen on Jan 14, 2020 17:27:12 GMT 12
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 14, 2020 17:29:28 GMT 12
CD transport? Are people still buying these? I dunno hence my question I guess. I have no idea how much a good server/ streamer cost, haven't gone there. I just want to listen to cd's for now, am I throwing my money away?
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Post by Owen Y on Jan 14, 2020 17:50:27 GMT 12
You might be able to pick up a good CDT or CDP (with digital out) for a good price - nowadays people throwing them out? (Watch out for laser problems though.) I think I paid a few $$ for this (8 yrs ago?):
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Post by Citroen on Jan 14, 2020 17:53:30 GMT 12
Rip CDs to WAV or FLAC lossless.
No need for a CD transport.
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Post by Owen Y on Jan 14, 2020 17:54:04 GMT 12
Sorry, still sounds like Klingon to me. What I'm more interested in is why people don't have phono preamps based on this design cf the traditional setup. I'm, guessing there must be a few negatives to that design. (As said, I'm no SS expert but...) one of the negatives is that, if the cct is truly balanced, it would have many more component parts, as it is 'symmetrical', 'mirror-imaged' +ve & -ve signal lines around a separate Ground line. Whereas in 'unbalanced' or 'single-ended', there are only 2 lines, the -ve signal phase sharing with a 'common Ground'.
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Post by Citroen on Jan 14, 2020 18:38:51 GMT 12
I'm feeling really dumb right now, as I still don't know what that means... ;(
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Post by michaelw on Jan 14, 2020 19:14:56 GMT 12
a simple explanation of balanced by alan gore, the music room, way back when
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Post by Owen Y on Jan 14, 2020 19:18:08 GMT 12
I'm feeling really dumb right now, as I still don't know what that means... ;( I don't think I really do either
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 14, 2020 20:30:01 GMT 12
Rip CDs to WAV or FLAC lossless. No need for a CD transport. To what though, how much do I need to spend to get the same sound quality from a $1000 CD transport?
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Post by michaelw on Jan 15, 2020 9:50:45 GMT 12
why bother if you have a good system to play discs on ?
speaking of... will you be playing just cd's or hi-res too ?
if hi-res a cambridge cxu-hd ftw,
otherwise a cxc is a fine transport.
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Post by colinf on Jan 15, 2020 12:01:28 GMT 12
Using balanced connections in hifi systems can be a minefield! There are many circuit configurations for generating a mirror negative phase of a positive single ended signal, in order to have it run down a length of cable and have reduced interference. It’s different with specific hifi components, some good and some not well implemented. Generally though, if the signal cable run is long, say over 3 metres, balanced cables will pick up less noise and hum. For short signal lengths it isn’t necessary. Studios and PA equipment in halls use balanced cables to avoid hum pickup through unavoidable ground loops and crosstalk from adjacent cable runs of signals of varying magnitude, eg. Weak signals from a microphone next to high level monitor headphone signals. RF pickup is still an achilles heel of long cable runs though. Microphones etc. for stage use these days use radio transmission over hall-sized distances to get rid of long, expensive, damage-prone and trip-hazardous balanced cables. Also far quicker to set up and able to use single ended connections at the receiving end. Studios still use balanced connections for best sound quality in compromising cable situations, which they do have! For phono, having a balanced input and maintaining the balance throughout the entire playback chain can have the advantage of cancelling even-ordered harmonic distortion. There are circuit techniques, especially for poweramps, that make balanced circuitry have much lower distortion than single ended techniques. That gets into the topic of design of push-pull vs single ended, a bit different to balanced cable transmission. So you can see it’s a complex field, and for hifi it isn’t really necessary to have to resort to balanced cables. Although using balanced design techniques to lower distortion can be of benefit.
AMR-iFi R&D
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Pundit
Post by garym on Jan 15, 2020 18:10:13 GMT 12
Colin... Are you sure you want to cancel out those even order harmonics? 😎
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 15, 2020 18:48:08 GMT 12
why bother if you have a good system to play discs on ? speaking of... will you be playing just cd's or hi-res too ? if hi-res a cambridge cxu-hd ftw, otherwise a cxc is a fine transport. Not too worried about hi-res at this stage. I just want a half decent digital front end without spending too much money. This may be a dumb question but... Most of my CDs are already ripped to FLAC and I do have access to a Lenovo V310 (my son's he hardly uses it). How would this compare to something like the Cambridge CXC as a source?
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 15, 2020 19:29:48 GMT 12
To put it another way, for the same money what would sound better a dedicated transport or laptop?
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