Post by colinf on Jan 16, 2020 0:38:44 GMT 12
Colin... Are you sure you want to cancel out those even order harmonics? 😎 That’s the great topic of the moment! Nelson Pass allows a little negative phase 2nd harmonic in bigger amps, which the ear interprets as more soundstage space. A bit of positive phase 2nd harmonic makes the sound more intimate and forward. The amount of 2nd and the type are system dependent. So you could start with a low distortion setup with balanced techniques that lower even order harmonics and add 2nd as required with a jfet or triode. Or simply use a single-ended circuit. That can be seen practically in the way some people prefer a low distortion poweramp and adding a valve single-ended line stage that adds some 2nd.
AMR-iFi R&D
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Post by Owen Y on Jan 16, 2020 11:26:36 GMT 12
I recall Nelson Pass saying (in one of the interviews with Steve Guttenberg - see 9:50 on) & crediting Jean Hiraga for advancing the idea that that total distortion itself does not tell us if an amp sounds 'good', but more useful is the distribution of distortion harmonics, or harmonic 'spectra of an amp's output. We understand now that some amount of residual even-order harmonic distortion (eg 2nd harmonic) tends to sound 'agreeable' to most listeners & that odd-order distortion (H3, H5, etc) sounds more 'discordant' or harsh. Further (as I understand it), maintaining an gradually 'decaying' distribution of distortion harmonics from low-order with diminishing higher-order harmonics, tends to sounds most 'natural'. Interesting, Nelson Pass (above) talks also about the 'phase' of H2 distortion affecting the apparent 'soundstage' of an amp. (However we still have reviewers & commentators today, putting forward blanket 'THD' figures, as a guide to the worthiness of a hi-fi amplifier.) Sorry, we may have to open a thread for this in 'Amplification in general'
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 16, 2020 12:28:23 GMT 12
Up to you Owen, I'm all good.
I knew balanced audio was subject differing opinions. If the experts can't agree what hope do we have? As they say, let your ears be the judge.
Google has been working overtime as I try in vain to keep up with the tech talk.
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 16, 2020 12:30:40 GMT 12
To put it another way, for the same money what would sound better a dedicated transport or laptop? I wouldn't mind someone offering an opinion on this though. 🙂
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Post by colinf on Jan 16, 2020 12:31:55 GMT 12
I think I first heard about the type of harmonic spectra affecting the sound in Audio Amateur in about 1986 (but forget who). And have been interested in harmonic distortion spectra ever since! I recall Jean Hiraga using a battery powered complementary jfet-bipolar class A circuit and I think mention was made of types of distortion. Years later I gained access to a Hewlett-Packard spectrum anayser ($10k worth!) and started measuring. A typical 12ax7 common cathode circuit with 100mV input has 2nd at -45 to -55db (depending on quality and brand of the tube), and 3rd at -60 to -75db. The 12ax7LPS had the lowest distortion but didn’t sound as good as the Mullard, which had average to less than average distortion.
AMR-iFi R&D
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Post by colinf on Jan 16, 2020 12:38:38 GMT 12
Harvey, I like dedicated cd transports, but for convenience a laptop running usb is good, and is capable of high res formats. I think it has more to do with the sound of the dac and digital noise (jitter) performance. I’d use both!
AMR-iFi R&D
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Post by Graham on Jan 16, 2020 14:20:04 GMT 12
For the odd occasion I want to listen to CDs I use an old DVD player ( Denon DVD 900 ) as it has excellent Burr Brown chips inside providing excellent audio reproduction. This player became redundant when I bought a Blue Ray player for DVD watching. I'm into recycling !!
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Post by Citroen on Jan 16, 2020 14:50:44 GMT 12
To put it another way, for the same money what would sound better a dedicated transport or laptop? I wouldn't mind someone offering an opinion on this though. 🙂 Great question. Could you try your CD player into a DAC and compare that to the laptop into the DAC to get a feeling for what might be achieved? So many variables. You have a free laptop already so a transport would be extra cost. And you would lose all the convenience of the laptop/streamer. OTOH, configuring a laptop for best audio, and using the right USB connection is a whole other world of audio tech talk. A dedicated transport would be a lot easier to set up. I used to use a Win PC, with Foobar into a Metrum NOS DAC via USB. But now I just use a Bluesound streamer and Tidal for much greater ease of use. CD player doesn't get used much these days.
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Post by cartridgeguyonline on Jan 16, 2020 16:31:42 GMT 12
Dont I see a more than half decent Rotel Cd player tucked away behind your speakers ? Have you tried using that into your dac ?
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 16, 2020 18:11:53 GMT 12
Thanks for the input guys
Yes well spotted on the Rotel, it's a 965. I've a soft spot for the 9 Series as it made up my first decent system. I've bought a few pieces over the years for none other than nostalgic reasons. I did have a Cambridge Audio 650 BRP and compared this with the Rotel when I first got the Topping D50 DAC. Probably not surprisingly the Cambridge walked all over the Rotel so it will be staying in the box.
I sold the Cambridge BRP for $350 thinking it will only going to cost me another $450 to get the CXC transport. Seemed like a good idea at the time but I'm not so sure about that anymore either. 😏
There's an ex demo Bluesound Vault Gen 2 on Trade Me for $1400. More than I wanted to spend but I could be tempted if I knew it was going to sound better than the CXC. I just waded through 8 pages of discussion over at Steve Hoffman forum discussing the Bluesound Node vs CDP and I'm none the wiser...
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 16, 2020 18:21:14 GMT 12
Just a reminder, it's probably got lost up the top. I'd be running either through a Denafrips Ares DAC.
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Post by Citroen on Jan 16, 2020 18:22:12 GMT 12
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 18, 2020 18:10:31 GMT 12
I called the seller of the Bluesound Vault on T/Me as I've dealt with Mike a couple of times over the years. On discussing where I was at he quoted me a NOS Nad M50 for $1500 that had been sitting around.
It would seem to be a be good solution for me. CD transport, music streamer and with the addition of a HDD a server as well. I'm picking it up on Monday.
Only downside I can see are, no DSD playback and the NAD does MQA but the Ares DAC doesn't. A bit of a shame but neither of these were a consideration at the start.
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Post by sub on Jan 18, 2020 18:29:41 GMT 12
Good price, retailed for $2499US in 2014
Whttps://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-masters-series-m50-digital-music-player-amp-m52-digital-music-vault
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 18, 2020 21:00:02 GMT 12
Yeah I think so too, as best I can tell they seem to be selling for that much secondhand, so good price for a new one. I believe there is not much difference between this and the current model M50.2. Main changes I can tell is the newer one does do DSD and has a hard drive, it retails here for $8000. 😳
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 21, 2020 13:23:49 GMT 12
I picked up the M50 yesterday and unboxed it, I have to say it's not the best looking piece of audio gear out there.
I'm now looking at sorting out memory storage. I sit close to my hifi gear and am weary about the noise from a HDD so am leaning towards SSD. I've gone down an interweb rabbit hole to try and find out if one may sound better than the other and come out none the wiser. 1TB will be enough for me and I will back it up to a PC. Interested to hear from anyone else's experience or who may know more than me about this (that will be most of you out there).
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Pundit
Post by rocl on Jan 21, 2020 18:27:52 GMT 12
I've been using SSD's for about 5yrs now, mainly because they are silent and were strongly recommended at the time. I have it in a fanless mini computer running on openmediavault OS connected via ethernet. The computer developed an issue with the ethernet port so I moved the SSD to a powered external HDD and the SQ dropped like a stone.
I should have compared the drives then but I had other imperatives.
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Post by Citroen on Jan 21, 2020 19:08:40 GMT 12
Portable drives seem a lot quieter than their desktop equivalent.
Can't make any definitive statement as to any difference in SQ. Which may say a lot in itself!
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 21, 2020 21:05:43 GMT 12
Thanks, for the feedback. Straight out of the box playing a CD through the Topping DAC it already has more depth, detail and texture to the sound with a smoother presentation compared to the Cambridge Audio used previously. I downloaded the Bluos app, found the M50 and connected it to Wifi then searched for updates. Once this was done I found Tidal on the app, logged in selected a song and hit play. The NAD changed inputs automatically and we had music. I must admit it was a lot easier than I was expecting especially after skimming through the manual which seems to make things sound harder than needed.
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Sept 14, 2020 21:59:05 GMT 12
Covid update.
So after my employer of 6 years kindly emailed my final redundancy notice the day we went into Level 4 lockdown, I found myself with time on my hands (luckily I've started a new job two weeks ago).
After earning brownie points tidying up the house and garden my attention turned to more important matters. In no particular order I've done the following.
Built new jumper cables with Audioquest hyperlitz wire. Changed speaker cable connection by connecting directly into the HF input instead of LF input. My reasoning was it would be better for the signal to pass directly to the electrostatic panel. I've since discovered this is the method recommended by Martin Logan. Played around with vertical orientation of the panels, ended up tilting them foward slightly. Cleaned panels with a can of compressed air and vacum cleaner (the latter was very nerve wracking).
Stripped down and cleaned turntable, changed bearing oil and polished tonearm. Changed spindle bearing to ceramic ball bearing. Spent a bit of time gaining more knowledge on the dark art of cartridge set up then put said knowledge to the test (purchased a VTA gauge in the process). Checked and adjusted platter speed. Tried adjusting TT suspension searching for the elusive vertical bounce, gave up on that one. Rewired the power cable from HR power supply to TT motor to remove an adapter required for earlier model decks. In the process of everything I discovered there was a tonearm decoupling kit available for my armboard so have ordered one and am awaiting delivery.
Cleaned all cable connections and inputs with Craigs Deoxit.
Built new power cables with 2.5mm Supra cable.
Bought another set of Les Davis Audio 3D-2 damping devices. I'd purchased a set of the earlier ones from Gary late last year and was very impressed with the results.
I'd never get a job as an audio reviewer so lets just say the above changes varied from 'meh' to 'holly shit' and the combined effort has left me with a big smile.
Took delivery back in May of a Denafrips Ares ll (ordered earlier in the year when I was employed). Built a pair of XLRs with Mogami cable for DAC to preamp duties.
Oh and I finally built some cabinets for a set of full range drivers that have been sitting around for far too long, more about them later.
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Post by Owen Y on Sept 14, 2020 22:54:21 GMT 12
Whoa!
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Post by cartridgeguyonline on Sept 15, 2020 8:57:10 GMT 12
There are ways of getting that bounce right in a gyro; admittedly 39 years of experience doing it helps.. ( I do mine every year). Will exchange PMs.
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Post by Owen Y on Sept 15, 2020 10:07:33 GMT 12
Your thoughts on the DENAFRIPS Ares II would be of interest too in due course, I'm sure. Perhaps add a bit to the DENAFRIPS Ares II thread.
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Oct 30, 2020 10:21:04 GMT 12
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Dec 22, 2020 20:16:29 GMT 12
With the addition of a digital front end late last year it confirmed to me what I had always suspected, my ZRT (Zaph Revelator Tower) speakers were too hot in the top end. Vinyl sounded great if a little harsh on certain tracks, I always put it down to poor recordings or tried to dial it out with VTA. Digital sounded fine wth the Theos but the ZRTs were problematic. With the option of padding the tweeter down, I decided to tackle the problem properly and do some other upgrades at the same time.
Madisound offer a copper foil inductor upgrade for these speakers I so soon found myself in posession of some. Dueland Coherent hookup wire came from Parts Connexion along with some upgrade caps for the high pass crossover.
I've just finished putting everything back together and am really happy with the results, they are a lot easier to listen to. Cymbals etc dont have the same impact (I suspect I may have just been used to the higher db output from the tweeter) but Neil's harmonica doesn't leave me reaching for the volume control. Bass response is much more defined and and tuneful. The speaker presents the music in a much more even handed fashion right across the range.
I also suspect I may have had cold solder joints on the binding posts. These are a bitch of a thing to solder if you don't have a decent iron, I bought a soldering station for this project and wish I'd done it much earlier.
So the Martin Logans are now residing at a beach up north and I've already spent the money. There's a NAD M50 for sale if anyone is interested.
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Jan 23, 2021 20:02:36 GMT 12
I had a nice long post about this, thought I'd saved it as a draft but it's gone so all you get is the picture.
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Works for me Jan 23, 2021 21:19:25 GMT 12
- Edited Jan 23, 2021 21:26:09 GMT 12 by RdM
Post by RdM on Jan 23, 2021 21:19:25 GMT 12
I had a nice long post about this, thought I'd saved it as a draft but it's gone
So frustrating, I've had that many times, even after my last post, PC crash, but on re-boot was able to retrieve...
Look up 'Textarea Cache' as an extension in Chrome or Firefox or what have you.
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Member
Post by aspar13 on Mar 12, 2021 21:59:13 GMT 12
Hi Harvey. Thanks for directing me here. Great system you have. Cheers.
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Mar 13, 2021 20:11:09 GMT 12
Cheers aspar.
Quick update, power amp is now residing between the speakers and a couple of the Kimber cables are on the market. Was always conscious of being over capitilized on interconnects and looking to try the short speaker cable long interconnect is better theory (and free up some money which hopefully will be be better spent elsewhere). Currently running Supra speaker cable and DIY balanced Mogami interconnect. Definately taken a step backwards at this stage but not as big as I thought it would be. Still quite easy to listen to but have lost some detail, focus and timbre. Not sure what I'm going to move to as I don't no how much I'd need to spend to better the Mogami cable and there is not a lot of 5m XLR's available without spending stupid money.
Probably not the best way to approach this but thats never stopped me before...
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