Well, its just arrived and its 240V

Gave me a hell of a fright when I turned it on. Even though I've seen and heard the vids, the initial high pitched squeal frightened the bejesus out of me!

You didn't switch on without water in tank did you?

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Sort of.

Was only half full. Sound has dropped a few tones with a bit more water.

Just dunking LPs in at the moment for a few minutes, which cleans about a third of the lp. 3 cycles and complete lp is cleaned. Trying to find an old moldy lp to test out some Rapidex cleaning powder, designed for use in US machines to clean blood, protein etc from endoscopes.

Alert Citroen!

I have read this - " a very high pH (eg. 11 in the case of the Rapidex?) - this is considered highly "basic", and could be corrosive (caustic) to many materials. I have not seen any experiments investigating the effects of bases on vinyl records so it is hard to be sure if this is bad for them, but knowing what it does to the skin, I would avoid it on my records."

ie. Drain Cleaner

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Indeed. It came with a warning to wear gloves. It doesn't seem to affect delicate endoscopic equipment which variously have metal, plastic, rubber parts. Nevertheless, I'm diluting it to half recommended use, and using it on a very disposable 20 Original Solid Gold Hits Vol 33




I can't seem to find anyone who uses Endozime, pH neutral enzymatic cleaner. www.ruhof.com/products/endozime

I did't mind Duran Duran - but it should be interesting experiment, rinse well. Also the tank.

The other thing to consider is "pH is a measure of the concentration of H+ ions" - static charge, attraction of dust, is one reason why anionic or non-ionic detergents are recommended. But summer is near end now

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The idea is to only use a protealytic cleaner for really dirty records with mold, fingerprints etc.

It seems that the US cleaners aren't great at this.

I put the Solid Gold Hits album through the cleaner in just water and then in a light solution of Rapidex. With water only a lot of debris was removed, but there was still a trace of finger prints and mold residue.
The rapidex cleaned the remaining up nicely. Whether or not a second go in just water would have done the same, I don't know.

A point raised above is the problem of static charge on records, ie. clicks, pops & dust attraction.

We don't have that much problem in humid Auckland but worth grasping what's going on.
Again, from guest 110 in the Audiokarma thread....

"The rough theory on this.... records will accumulate a negative charge. They aren't made that way...they BECOME that way. Vinyl records are not good conductors (rather, they are insulators). Things like towels, sleeves, and even clothing impart this charge on the surface during handling (via rubbing together and separating (see "Triboelectric effect").  Furthermore, as PVC degrades, it produces acid that remains on the surface and contributes to the negative change.

Most detergents are based on SDS (sodium dodecyl sulfate; aka sodium lauryl sulfate) as it is cheap and works well on dirt. The polar head group of SDS is also negatively charged however, and since a molecular layer of detergent is left behind after cleaning, the charge problem is further compounded. This charge will find a way to neutralize, hence the pops or sparks associated with static discharge. It can also find neutralization by interacting with charged dust particles so the cleaned record actually attracts dirt.

This is one reason why we shy away from dish soap and other household cleaners (another reason is that they contain other ingredients we don't want on our records). If we use a pure non-ionic detergent, it will not compound the problem and will also help rinse away some of the built up acids on the record surface.

If our environment is prone to static, we can further add a positively charged detergent (an cationic like a quat) that will leave behind a slight positive charge that will neutralize charges transferred from handling or built up over time.

It seems simple, but there are plenty of commercial record cleaning preparations that still use SDS. People use them, then dry their records with a towel, and see clean records but with static. Manufacturers know about these problems, but a few have not wised up to the fact that it is all in their solutions.

I learned a lot from a guy at Intel who worked in clean rooms where static and dust can be very detrimental: the work surfaces are cleaned with non-ionic detergents and treated with quats. Since we can hear the consequences of static (accumulated dust or, worst case, a charge pathed at our cartridge), it only makes sense to deal with it and not encourage it.

BTW: Water is a good conductor and can reduce static, so simple wet rinsing can help whereas dry wiping can hurt. Likewise, water in air (humidity) can help so some use humidifiers in their homes."

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After the US cleaner there are quite noticeable sound benefits. But I've had similar results from vacuum RCM.

So how do we quantify the differences, to see if US is better than vacuum RCM?

Thinking aloud, ideally we would need two records equally polluted. Listen before and then clean after with the different method. Compare.
But this is impossible.

So how do we know that the US cleaning isn't giving us the same/better/worse results than other cleaning methods?

Well I suppose....

1) It depends on what you hear, not what others (say they) hear

2) I've been slowly going through records, listening to some, cleaning them, then re-listen. Some of these have been cleaned before, some haven't. After a while, I think I'm beginning to build a picture - they sound better. A lot better.

3) For me, I feel happier using water/detergent, not water/alcohol.

4) As said, I'm actually encouraged to clean records - whereas before, it was a chore. ie. It's easier, suits my time availability.

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cliff...

you could buy three new copies of a record.

keep one uncleaned as a control, then US and vacuum RCM the remaining two

Citroen - which cleaner tank did you buy in the end?

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Mar 22, 2017 10:08:00 GMT 12 michaelw said:

cliff...

you could buy three new copies of a record.

keep one uncleaned as a control, then US and vacuum RCM the remaining two

A very sound plan...

As it so happens I just noticed that I've accidentally ordered 2 of the same Sun Ra record, so I only need to buy one more  

Mar 22, 2017 10:26:22 GMT 12 Owen Y said:

Citroen - which cleaner tank did you buy in the end?

Same as yours and rocl's, the PS-30A, (although its a few mm smaller than the dimensions you gave).

Update:
Sample clamp nuts have arrived & look good.
A sample batch of different/softer spacers should be here by courier hopefully tomorrow.
A few CAD dimensional tweaks have been done & the final prototype should be up & running by the weekend.
Then we'll order the laser-cutting, a small batch. (The above prototype was water-jet cut.)

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Sounds good. Will the small batch be sold to any very interested participants in this thread?

Me, I just want detailed pics and dimensions of each part so I can whip one up at work when time and money allows... Keep up the good work guys!

Oh I forgot, an important detail ....

Cost-wise, we are hoping for well under $200, possibly $175ea - for the stainless fitting on the tank, mtr drive coupling & shaft, record spacers, record clamp nuts & end bearing.
Plus postage.
You buy the tank & the rotisserie motor.

rocl & Citroen, if still keen, i have you on the list

(One part takes ages to come from China, so we may have to organise a couple of temporary bits if you are keen to get running.)

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PS. It depends a lot on the laser-cutting cost.
My engineer is supplying his R & D for free & his labour in return for a small margin to go towards his mortgage

Me, as said, I'm just in it for the fun & learning.

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Your "engineer" owes you so much more in upkeep over all those years you supported him. Stuff his mortgage!

The dunk and three times rotate seems to work OK for single records, albeit a bit labour intensive.

I see that cleanervinyl.com using the same US machine have a 12 LP version. They seem to compensate for the number of LPs by increasing the cleaning time.

What is the thickness of the spacers? Material? Dimensions?

PS Quite comfortable with that pricing!

Owen Y that sounds pretty good to me too. unlike Citroen i haven't even plugged mine in. i bought my RCM a couple of months ago and for a lot of my discs, it is enough. i also find it very convenient and am cleaning each disc just before playing. takes under 5mins and is not a hassle yet. chch is not warm and i am thinking i will be drying mine with the RCM's vacuum.

i must start a list of those that need the US cleaner. if there is a temporary way of beginning i would be moderately interested. and look after that engineer - he sounds very modest in his needs!

Have put a few more LPs thru the machine.

Initial impressions are of a quieter background.

But either needs a good scrub with other agents to remove gross mold, dirt, or a clean in the vacuum RCM beforehand.

Oh, and I've been vacuuming after as well, in the Double Smart Matrix RCM.

Machine just died

No power.

do you have a double matrix ?

Its just an old one like this



but I wish I could try the new Sonic version
clearaudio.de/en/products/cleaning-double_matrix_professional_sonic.php

Just an old one... Chuck that in with those wreckids if ya like Cliff...

rocl - where did you source the Triton X-100 from in NZ?

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Mar 27, 2017 17:45:54 GMT 12 Citroen said:

Machine just died

No power.

Wiggled the power socket where the chord connects to the machine and it briefly lit up, but instantly powered off.

Tried again but this time it cut the power to half my house. So for fear of electrocuting myself I'm putting the Ultrasonic machine back in its box.

So now its time to try to find yet another source for this machine at a reasonably shipped price...or maybe just give up! 

You can get the Triton from here www.ecplabchem.co.nz/triton-x-100-ar-500ml-glass-xidp184905.html

I use Photoflo from my darkroom days.

Owen Y i got it from here - www.conservationsupplies.co.nz/product/triton-x100-cle01/

 no 1/2litre at the moment but a good price for a litre. just ordered some more.