Mar 11, 2017 16:53:06 GMT 12 Citroen said:

But I've read that an enzyme cleaner that's usually used to remove blood and protein from surgical instruments is the way to go for fingerprints et al.

I'd be interested in sourcing some of that stuff, to try.

DarkLantern blog - darklanternforowen.wordpress.com

I don't recall the communications I had, but have you tried contacting my seller - goodlucksell - to check they still post to NZ?

DarkLantern blog - darklanternforowen.wordpress.com

Still early days but....

What I'm hearing is -  similar effects to conventional record cleaning - ie. an increase in upper freq info.
However, with US, the effect is more intense, as if the cavitation digs more grime out of the groove walls & bottoms than a cleaning brush can.

The Sinatra record (Pye NZ manuf), whilst it still has crackling noise (groove damage?) after 2 cleaning cycles - now has surprisingly excellent voice range, 'velvety' Nelson Riddle string tone, quick/snappy leading edges & nicely ambient!  I've never been a Sinatra fan, but there is some magic happening here.

The 2nd record cleaned, an Eng pressed copy of Kiri Te Kanawa's Songs of the Auvergne (just arrived from eBay to replace my NZ copy) was similar - increased HF fine detailing, orchestral texture, oboes much 'reedier', flutes airier, nice clarinet vibrato & Kiri's voice (which always seemed to sound rather euphonic, 'impressionistic' here), now seems to have much better articulation, definition. (Note: This is supposed to be a Penguin 'rosette' recording - "sumptuous....demonstration quality, vivid and atmospheric....".)

Some excitement building here.

(Bearing in mind still, I have used only plain tap water to date.)



image upload

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Mar 11, 2017 18:25:36 GMT 12 Owen Y said:

I don't recall the communications I had, but have you tried contacting my seller - goodlucksell - to check they still post to NZ?

Unfortunately they won't ship to NZ anymore.

A better video - with 2 record stack....



(The spacers & wingnuts are still temporary until parts arrive.)

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great work !

Q - is there an optimum spacing between records ?

does doing 2 records affect the machines performance ?

Mar 13, 2017 9:43:05 GMT 12 michaelw said:

great work !

Q - is there an optimum spacing between records ?

does doing 2 records affect the machines performance ?

I don't know for sure at this stage - but cleaning seemed to work well on the 2 records stacked as above & the inner sides of the 2 records spaced 25mm apart, sounded equally good.

I have to say I'm becoming more impressed each time.

DarkLantern blog - darklanternforowen.wordpress.com

Citroen i just received an email that my US machine has shipped and in response to the email i sent on saturday i got this-

hi dear customer
thank you to choose our product
there is not the US delivery
you can buy it
but maybe you should wait for more several days
hope that it can help you
welcome to buy

Hmmmm...

Mar 11, 2017 12:16:22 GMT 12 rocl said:

audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/record-cleaning-youre-doing-it-wrong.689430/

a very loooong but interesting thread that gets into US cleaners near the end. they recommend 5% ipa with some triton and hepastat 256(not available in nz). the triton serves as the dispersant and cleaner.

rocl - this is an excellent thread so far (I'm only 1/3 through).
First, unlike most such threads (like this one) which are anecdotal, the key info there comes from a biochemist.

If there's one thing to be learnt, it's that the key active ingredient in a cleaning detergent is the Surfactant.

And that regular cleaners/soaps etc contain all sorts of other ingredients that you don't need/want on your record vinyl.
So..... pretty much all you need is a Surfactant.  And clean water.  (That's what the US Library of Congress uses to clean records.)

Triton X-100 is an example of a pure Surfactant.

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Listening update:
These 2 s/h '60s English LPs arrived (as per WILT thread) & I was surprised how they responded to an US clean.

Am reluctant to bandy around the word 'transformation' but they became much more vivid, dynamic & 'present'.
My notes have the words 'glisten' & brilliant'.

Another thing I'm noticing (I think) is that the cartridge seems to track (dynamic peaks) better, more dynamically open.

(Mexrrissey on Thurs, so the next 2 nights will be devoted to The Smiths & Morrissey )

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forum.audiogon.com/discussions/a-very-long-primer-on-record-cleaning-fluids

here is another from 2005 also from a biochemist saying very similar things. it is very important to understand what the effect of the cleaner is having on the vinyl. of course we can use any old thing a couple of times with very little audible effect.

I've been following this thread with interest.

Would also be keen on a DIY US machine

I still have a bit of distilled water, a small qty of Triton X-100 (thanks to simon's dad Ken), so spent an hour or so last night carefully measuring/mixing a 10% concentrate for the US cleaning.

Final concentration in the cleaner tank will be 0.1% - 0.5% (as per guest110's Audiokarma advice).



(The pure Triton X-100, a viscous liquid, does not dissolve easily, so requires some time mixing it down. As can be seen, it also tends to foam like detergents do.)

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@owen Y the triton dissolves well in the IPA. i just put the triton into a measuring cup and add some of the IPA. it dissolves instantly.

i'm going to have a chat with the cleaner at work to see if i can get a small amount of the hepastat equivalent. it maintains the solution longer and reduces static, so i have read.

This summary (from guest110, excerpted by me) captures I think the main points I've taken so far, about record cleaning fluids:

We’ve been using non-ionic detergents (Triton or Tergitol) to clean our records as recommended by preservationists. They are superior to common detergents (e.g. dish soap or shampoo) as they do not introduce a negative charge which can promote static and solutions of them are neutral in pH.

Like most detergents, they have long hydrophobic tails that help solubilize things like fats and polar head groups that make them soluble in aqueous solutions where they form micelles. We use them at a final concentration of 0.1 to 0.5% for initial cleaning of a dirty record.

We also (optionally) add a bit of isopropanol (isopropyl alcohol) solvent to aid in fluid dispersion and releasing contaminants. We are keeping the final concentration of alcohol to 15% or below to reduce the risk of extracting useful plasticizers incorporated in the vinyl.

Finally, in cases of very grimy records, we have discussed a method of enzymatic treatment prior to detergent cleaning that helps solubilize fats, sugars, and protein, the main organic contaminants found on surfaces.

So in a nutshell, that is what folks here are playing with and the results have been great.

One theory behind the use of the specific detergents is that they also leave behind a molecular layer that helps keep the surface conditioned in a way that reduces friction and does not introduce negative charge

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Mar 15, 2017 20:56:12 GMT 12 rocl said:

@owen Y the triton dissolves well in the IPA. i just put the triton into a measuring cup and add some of the IPA. it dissolves instantly.

i'm going to have a chat with the cleaner at work to see if i can get a small amount of the hepastat equivalent. it maintains the solution longer and reduces static, so i have read.

Yes indeed, as Vince (guest110) says a bit of isopropyl alcohol speeds it up. But you can just leave it overnight to dissolve in water, just slower - I am avoiding alcohol initially if I can, taking it step by step, ie.....

1) Plain water - works very well, in an US cleaner.

2) A bit of detergent added - should get rid of heavier oily contaminations - confirmed tonight with 0.1% Triton in the tank.

3) My feeling is that, with an US cleaner, you may not need any more chemicals for cleaning & air-drying has been quick in this warm weather at least (without the assistance of alcohol) - the detergent/surfactant speeds drying even more because the water does not bead on the record. And there's always the vacuum if in a super hurry.

PS. After half a dozen records, the water had become v slightly murky, so it was drained & replaced with carbon filtered (drinking) water - for the above detergent mix.

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" One theory behind the use of the specific detergents is that they also leave behind a molecular layer that helps keep the surface conditioned in a way that reduces friction and does not introduce negative charge "

it has also been hypothesised that the same layer leaves a sonic signature on the record.

Love the idea but the downside is you have to maintain a full bath of fluid. For the amount I use my machine it would go off?

Hi beeman - first up, I've found that the machine holds only 4.5L (ie. up to the recommended water level, the advertised '6L' must be a nominal tank volume).

If you are not using alcohol (which at this stage my thinking is that it's unnecessary except for really dirty records), then the fluid won't degrade (ie, evaporating alcohol). With my regular RCM, I'm always concerned that the 20% alcohol/water mix changes concentration over time within the RCM.

If you use only water/detergent mix, then I don't see any problem. I find that the water evaporates, naturally & because of the mild heating of the cavitation process - this is where the supplied st steel tank lid comes in useful - also dust.

Convenience:
I find the US cleaner much more convenient & encouraging to use, than regular RCMs.
I've had a couple of RCMs, a Nitty Gritty & currently a well-respected Keith Monks RCM - but I always end up with a growing pile of records to be cleaned. Why? Because whenever I grab some time for this hobby, I want to listen to music & not hunch over a RCM.

And this is where the US cleaner seems easier to me - whereas a regular RCM process needs full attention from beginning to end & one record side at a time, with the US cleaner the hardest part is loading & unloading the record holder rod.  Then you just press the button & walk away - the machine automatically times & stops.  (The rotating motor will keep turning the record/s until you come back.). Both sides are done simultaneously & up to 3 or 4 records can be done in a stack - the latter would take me  half an hr on the RCM (incl vacuum drying).

And how about drying? I'll see what happens in winter but in this weather, with detergent/surfactant in the mix, air-drying seems to take only minutes (on say a dish rack). Again, while I'm away doing something else useful  

I would recommend setting the machine up somewhere other than in the listening room (laundry, garage, etc) with a drain hose connected (details to come), discharging into a tub or say a 10L paint pail.

(I'm conducting a test but, unless cleaning really dirty records, I'm thinking that a tankful may be OK for a dozen records - and I will also experiment with filtering the fluid.)

DarkLantern blog - darklanternforowen.wordpress.com

Effectiveness:
The last couple of days, I've Ultrasonic cleaned some records I've cleaned before on the Keith Monks RCM (20%  isopropanol mix) & the results are consistent with what I'm hearing every time - I think I can say that Ultrasonic Cleaning works better than brush cleaning, manual or with a RCM.

What I'm hearing consistently is:
- More dynamic range, 'louder', as if the stylus has more freedom riding the groove.
- More HF information - which in turn sharpens leading edges, everything is snappier, faster, tauter, incl. bass..
- Both of the above give rise to more 'ambience' - more 'air' & 'sustain' to musical sounds.
- The cartridge often seems to track better - dynamic peaks seem to be 'easier', more 'open', have more freedom, less strain.

Overall, everything sounds more 'live', more 'you are there' more 'in the room'.

(So far, in the US cleaner, I am using just filtered water + 0.1% detergent (Triton X-100), no isoprop alcohol.)

DarkLantern blog - darklanternforowen.wordpress.com

(The following is just musings, guesswork on my part....)

- I think what's happening here is that the US 'cavitation' process cleans the finer detail of the groove modulations better than any brush cleaner.

- Maybe the audibility of the above will be dependent on your cartridge, but any high quality cartridge will be equipped with a small/fine stylus. (Haven't tried my conical tipped DL103 yet )

- Why does everything sound more dynamic, more 'open', more 'loud'? I've no idea right now.

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Mar 9, 2017 18:54:23 GMT 12 rocl said:

Mar 9, 2017 18:47:38 GMT 12 Citroen said:

Yes, I've asked for a refund.

this is what they sent me - 

if you can cancel the order ,we will agree with that
and then the money will return back to you ,but you also need to waiting 5-10days
this is aliexpress policy
thanks
all the best !

i don't want to cancel the order. just been looking for a way of making a complaint. and getting the money back

Aliexpress have just sent confirmation of full refund, but yet to appear in my account.

Mar 18, 2017 16:49:08 GMT 12 Citroen said:

Mar 9, 2017 18:54:23 GMT 12 rocl said:

Aliexpress have just sent confirmation of full refund, but yet to appear in my account.

it arrived in my account a couple of days ago. a bit less than i paid as the exchange rate has shifted. i see this is still on aliexpress with the same shipping price as before and you and i are at the bottom among those who have purchased one.

the other one should arrive this week and i will be curious to see if it's 230v or 110v.

Ditto!

And as soon as my refund goes through I'm going to give them the feedback they deserve.

Please do the same Roger.

i looked but you cannot give feedback without the sale going through, unless i have missed something.

Mar 11, 2017 8:07:04 GMT 12 rocl said:

since the last attempt to purchase the cleaner on aliexpress went so well, i thought i would have a look on ebay au this morning. i found this
www.ebay.com/itm/232265132509
payment via paypal, total cost NZ$225.11

this arrived today and is 240v. yay!!!

my motor arrived last week and i am compiling a mental list of trial records, so almost ready to go when owen is..

Mar 20, 2017 14:13:31 GMT 12 rocl said:

Mar 11, 2017 8:07:04 GMT 12 rocl said:

since the last attempt to purchase the cleaner on aliexpress went so well, i thought i would have a look on ebay au this morning. i found this
www.ebay.com/itm/232265132509
payment via paypal, total cost NZ$225.11

this arrived today and is 240v. yay!!!

Excellent, success at last!

The critical dimensions across the top of the tank perimeter should be 325 long x 175mm wide.

DarkLantern blog - darklanternforowen.wordpress.com

Mar 20, 2017 14:57:44 GMT 12 Owen Y said:

Mar 20, 2017 14:13:31 GMT 12 rocl said:

this arrived today and is 240v. yay!!!

Excellent, success at last!

The critical dimensions across the top of the tank perimeter should be 325 long x 175mm wide.

if they are outside dimensions, then i am bang on.

Mar 18, 2017 16:49:08 GMT 12 Citroen said:

Mar 9, 2017 18:54:23 GMT 12 rocl said:

this is what they sent me - 

if you can cancel the order ,we will agree with that
and then the money will return back to you ,but you also need to waiting 5-10days
this is aliexpress policy
thanks
all the best !

i don't want to cancel the order. just been looking for a way of making a complaint. and getting the money back

Aliexpress have just sent confirmation of full refund, but yet to appear in my account.

Phew, refund now in hand 🙂

Now just waiting for the new one to arrive, and be 240v...