Post by Owen Y on Feb 13, 2018 19:38:30 GMT 12
OK you all know all this but  .... Moving Cpil cartridges have been the audiophile's preferred choice for pickup cartridges. Why? Because.... - Low mass of the moving coil vs a moving magnet, means more detailed HF tracing & (theoretically) faster 'leading edge' response. However.... - Output is very low (eg 0.2mV to 0.6mV) from the lightweight coil generator, which means a lot more step-up gain circuitry is needed - typically +20dB to +30dB. - Loading down to say 100 ohms (or ~1000 ohms for HOMCs) is typically recommended to tame peaking top end response. 'High output' MCs (HOMCs) are worth considering with 1.5mV to 3.5mV output voltage - enough to avoid the need for a MC step-up.) There is a case for MM (moving magnet) or MI (moving iron) cartridges, because.... - Higher output (2.5mV to 6.5mV) allows normal MM phono stages to get the signal up to digital line level easily. MM cartridges are usually considered a 2nd tier audiophile choice because the high moving mass of a magnet/s on the end of the cantilever results in less fine detail & less 'informative' groove tracing. However some MI types (eg Grado, Goldring, Soundsmith & some MM types like AT VM series), often do not suffer those drawbacks so much, due to sophisticated design - and can offer MM-level high output. (Worth noting that MM cartridges too (like all magnetic generators) require optimal loading (R & Capacitive) to achieve flat HF response.) Some will recall that the legendary Garrott Bros were strong MM advocates. Any thoughts?
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Post by deano1974 on Feb 13, 2018 20:18:04 GMT 12
Its funny how as you say MC are the audiophiles choice but I think things have changed esspecially with modern technology and design capabilities I have always thought the better MM cartridges from Clearaudio, Ortofon, Nagoaka definitely hold there own competing against the MCs upto to a price point and thats a modest 2k and above, But I also think its what you know, I have always used MMs and would not consider spending over 2k to have the same sound Obviously everyone has there own personal opions, but i do agree that the phonostage you use has to be able to align perfectly wirh the choice of MM Not getting the load and capatence can hold back what MM carts are capable of And the whole 47k 100pf recommendations from most manufactures doesnt help esspecially as alot of MM cartridges available perform better on other settings but thats a whole different topic And I open a can of worms lol Deano
Manager & Product specialist at Rapallo AV & HI-FI
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Post by michaelw on Feb 14, 2018 9:55:01 GMT 12
horses for courses.
back in the 70s many premium amps had phono stages to properly load mm's with 100k impedance and high capacitance.
i've enjoyed a few mm/mi's - grace, grado, audio technica, elite, technics etc and they have all performed well, albeit a sledgehammer compared to the scalpel-like grace of a good mc.
ideally the mm user should use a phono stage optimised for mm.
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Post by Owen Y on Feb 14, 2018 11:02:15 GMT 12
Yup, MMs as we know, need a wee bit of capacitive loading to achieve flat response, to tame HF peaking.  (Test graph by Elliott Sound Products.) My old Ortofon VMS20E cartridge was fitted with a small capacitance loading 'plate' (210 picofarad) which was cleverly friction fitted between the 4 rear pins of the cartridge. (Note that this combines with the capacitance of the tonearm-phono cable & at the preamp input, to approximate an optimal 400pF total capacitive load for the cartridge.)   (Pics from Lenco Heaven.) (MCs don't respond to capacitive loading, because of their small, low inductance coils - but still have HF resonance which needs taming, typical of magnetic circuits.)
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Post by michaelw on Feb 14, 2018 12:22:24 GMT 12
mc's do respond to capacitance albeit to a much less sensitive degree than mm's.
most mc phono stages include a capacitive component of ~200pF for rf supression.
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Post by Owen Y on Feb 14, 2018 12:40:37 GMT 12
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Post by Owen Y on Feb 14, 2018 13:49:13 GMT 12
i've enjoyed a few mm/mi's - grace, grado, audio technica, elite, technics etc and they have all performed well, albeit a sledgehammer compared to the scalpel-like grace of a good mc. Which was your fave MM?
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Post by Owen Y on Feb 14, 2018 14:06:15 GMT 12
I have always thought the better MM cartridges from Clearaudio, Ortofon, Nagoaka definitely hold there own competing against the MCs upto to a price point and thats a modest 2k and above, But I also think its what you know, I have always used MMs and would not consider spending over 2k to have the same sound - what would be your favourite/s of the current crop of MM/MIs that you carry and/or are familiar with? eg How's the Goldring 2000 series or the AT VMs?
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Post by michaelw on Feb 14, 2018 14:58:17 GMT 12
i've enjoyed a few mm/mi's - grace, grado, audio technica, elite, technics etc and they have all performed well, albeit a sledgehammer compared to the scalpel-like grace of a good mc. Which was your fave MM? grace f9e, comparable to a koetsu black of the era. and the super cheap grado ft-e or gt-e or whatever they called it, cost about $50 in the 80's. good honest sound. never got into the herald at-ml170, found it a bit bland compared to the sumiko bps i had at the time. technics epc-205 was very nice but mine met with any early death.
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Post by Citroen on Feb 14, 2018 16:44:49 GMT 12
OK you all know all this but .... Moving Cpil cartridges have been the audiophile's preferred choice for pickup cartridges. Why? Because.... Any thoughts? Denon 103/r
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Post by deano1974 on Feb 14, 2018 17:08:52 GMT 12
I have always thought the better MM cartridges from Clearaudio, Ortofon, Nagoaka definitely hold there own competing against the MCs upto to a price point and thats a modest 2k and above, But I also think its what you know, I have always used MMs and would not consider spending over 2k to have the same sound - what would be your favourite/s of the current crop of MM/MIs that you carry and/or are familiar with? eg How's the Goldring 2000 series or the AT VMs? Hi Owen havent heard many of the Goldrings apart from the 2300 which is pretty darn good for it's price The ATs are very very good especially the VM series the 760SLC tracks amazingly well with its special line contact stylus But I would have to say for me the Clearaudio MMs are excellent, I had the Artust V2 for a while and then had the chance to upgrade to the maestro and wow! The detail this cart can retrieve is easily superb and its a cartridge thats a seriously strong contender against any 3k+ MC But im biased, as I have always had a soft spot for MM Deano
Manager & Product specialist at Rapallo AV & HI-FI
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Post by Owen Y on Feb 27, 2018 9:35:42 GMT 12
Sidebar:Looking at the above ESP & Ortofon graphs, they appear to be conflicting - the ESP graphs suggest that (i) increasing capacitance increases HF peaking (ii) increasing resistive ohms load also increases HF peaking. Whereas the Ortofon graphs say that the added 220pF loading damps down the HF peaking. Ortofon's capacitance 'load' inserts a capacitor between signal pins & the Grounds - which will roll off the HF (at a freq determined by the pF size of the capacitor, in conjunction with the MM cartridge + phono cable inductance) - ie LC low pass filter:  Whereas, the ESP test shows a combination of series capacitance (phono cable) reacting with the input (47k) load of the preamp - ie CR high pass filter:  2 different things. The ESP info seems less relevant to me, as cables exhibit some (parallel/shunt) capacitance between conductors bundled in close proximity with dielectric/insulation between - as opposed to 'series' capacitance - but I could be wrong - I may have to dig out my 1987/90 Martin Colloms HFNRR Interconnects survey, for further my understanding of the electrical characteristics of capacitance in cables
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Post by guitardude on Feb 27, 2018 16:52:19 GMT 12
Hi All,
Sorry am a bit late to this conversation. Firstly as I remember it, MC cartridges have only been the audiophiles choice since the late 70's early 80's. The first one I recall coming across was the supex, I think there was an Ortofon model around before this but i've never seen one... Most Audiophiles of the time used the ubiquitous Shure V15, and I well remember the furore about the V151V replacing the V15111. Of course this may also have had something to do with the arms and tables in use at the time, your choices being either a Linn, grace, supex combo or a DD (Kenwood, Technics, or Lux being the popular alternatives) usually coupled with an SME arm and Shure cart. I too remember having a great time with a budget Grado cart (cant recall the model, but it was cheap...), as well as various EEI models. I also ran a V15iV on a Technics until I changed to my current table (Gyrodec). I still have a fair collection of cartridges which I have on detachable headshells and use on either the Jelco on the Gyro or the Sumiko MMT on my Kenwood KD600. Current faves are ann Empire 1000 on the Kenwood and a Dynavector 10x5 on the Jelco. On the Gyro I also have a Graham 2.2 fitted running a Supex SD900 lomc. Other carts in the collection are Technics EPC100mk3, Hana EH, Goldring 2500 (a real belter that one), Pickering XV15, and a Shure V15111.
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Post by jon on Feb 28, 2018 9:52:24 GMT 12
Decca Cartridges are a good case for MM/MI
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Post by Owen Y on Mar 9, 2018 15:18:22 GMT 12
Some thoughts on cartridges & their problems, esp MC cartridges (& some MMs)….  1) The mechanical geometry of the traditional cartridge (MC in particular) is fundamentally flawed – which matters quite a bit when we are dealing in microns. You can see that because the coils are held against a ‘damper’ material, the centre of rotation of the coils is not located at the centre of the coils but somewhere within the damper material behind the coil-former. So, the ‘sound picture’ created by the coil movements will not be precisely focussed (around coil centre). 2) Additionally, because the damper ‘suspension’ material is ‘soft’, the geometrical centre of rotation is vague, imprecise – there is no exact ‘fulcrum’ point. This is largely I think why with most cartridge designers (MCs in particular) feel they need to devote so much effort into improving ‘focus’ & ‘resolution’ – resulting in (i) often over-etched, 'hifi' tonality & (ii) great expense of these devices. 3) Another issue with MCs of course is low output. The coil windings are few, in order to minimise moving mass & the traditional ong ‘cantilever’ design also means that movements of the stylus in the groove result in very much smaller movements of the coils. (Some MMs have similar geometry, some do not.) There are of course a very few MC cartridges that have been designed differently – eg. the Ikeda 9C (Cello/Rowland), Allnic Verito, the Tzar, Miyajima…. but by & large, MC cartridge design is variations & refinements of the aforementioned traditional geometry.
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Pundit
Post by nakmad on Mar 9, 2018 19:16:56 GMT 12
Decca Cartridges are a good case for MM/MI One of the few cartridges of any ilk that raised the hairs on the back of my neck....  .... in a good way... and still does from time to time as it's on rationed usage .
Never play Leapfrog with a Unicorn.
Cassette Fetishist
219 posts
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Post by Owen Y on Mar 11, 2018 15:02:51 GMT 12
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Post by michaelw on Mar 12, 2018 10:43:59 GMT 12
OY - while tidying things up please correct the spelling of cartridge in the thread title
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Post by Owen Y on Mar 15, 2018 20:03:59 GMT 12
I forgot to mention the amazing Audio Technica ART1000 moving coil cartridge. Amazing concept & even more amazing that they managed to manufacture it & get it to market The coils are attached on top of the stylus (not at the rear of the cantilever)....  Michael Fremer 2016 video:
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Post by jon on Mar 15, 2018 22:14:12 GMT 12
Decca clone for MCs~!
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Post by michaelw on Mar 15, 2018 23:12:50 GMT 12
my that's a large cartridge 
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Post by Owen Y on Mar 19, 2018 9:45:41 GMT 12
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Post by Owen Y on Mar 19, 2018 14:54:34 GMT 12
A most interesting recent cartridge design from Japan is the Top Wing range of cartridges:  As you will note, the designer was formerly involved with the design of the Grace F-8/9 cartridges & the Nakamichi TX-1000 TT & Dragon cassette player. Jonathan Carr (Lyra) says that these cartridges are: " moving magnet cartridges that have... air core coils. As a result, the output voltage is at low-output MC levels (0.2mV...). Given the 12.3ohm coil impedance (extremely low by MM standards), the measured frequency response will not be affected by phono stage loading, which again is quite unlike nearly all other MMs or MIs."
"The first advantage is the affordable replacement costs for the cantilever and stylus."
"The second advantage is the elimination of permeable materials in the coil bobbins, which can also be found on a few MCs, but no other MMs or MIs."
"The third advantage is the coil size, which is extremely compact by MM or MI standards... As a result, the inductance and winding capacitance should be at low-output MC levels rather than MM or MI levels." Yesterday I spent an hour or so listening to a Top Wing 'Susaku' (Red Sparrow) model in a familiar system & (although the phono stage & speakers were also different) I was struck by the clarity, detailing, the 'air', reverb, ambience around the reproduction. (Pricing is in the eye-watering category  )
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Post by michaelw on Mar 19, 2018 15:00:18 GMT 12
interesting...
surprised to see open sides on a new design.
all new cartridges should have tapped bodyshells.
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Post by Owen Y on Mar 19, 2018 15:12:34 GMT 12
The Red Sparrow has a tapped body topplate (I think), but the (less costly) Seiryu 'Blue Dragon' does not. Top Wing webpage is here - topwing.jp/index-en.html
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Post by michaelw on Mar 19, 2018 17:16:42 GMT 12
specs and prices from stereonet aus. www.stereo.net.au/news/top-wing-handmade-cartridges-now-availableeye watering indeed ! The Seiru (Blue Dragon) is $9,400 RRP and Suzaku (Red Sparrow) is $12,500 RRP. <<< why is a dragon more than a sparrow ? For more information visit the Top Wing brand page. Specifications Seiryu (Blue Dragon) Type of power generation: Coreless straight-flux Stylus: Line contact Cantilever material: Aluminium Housing Material: Ultra Duralium Output at 5 cm/s at 1 kHz: 0.2 mV Internal impedance: 12.3Ω Inductance: Secret (but non-sensitive to capacitive load) Recommended tracking weight: 1.75 g–2.0 g Headshell material: Ultra Duralumin (adopting Fidelix Mitchaku Contact technology) Weight: 12.3 g (total weight equipped with the attached headshell: 30.0 g) Suzaku (Red Sparrow) Type of power generation: Coreless straight-flux Stylus: Line contact Cantilever material: Aluminium Housing Material: Composite Titanium, Dry Carbon and High Performance Resins Output at 5 cm/s at 1 kHz: 0.2 mV Internal impedance: 12.3Ω Inductance: Secret (but non-sensitive to capacitive load) Recommended tracking weight: 1.75 g–2.0 g Weight: < 9 g
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Post by Owen Y on Mar 19, 2018 21:02:12 GMT 12
Have they sacrificed some of the virtues of MMs (eg high output) in order to imitate MCs (eg micro-resolution)?
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Post by guitardude on Mar 20, 2018 11:01:01 GMT 12
Interesting, but surely what is needed now are some really good budget priced cartridges. Grado used to do one that was really good value (under $100.00 iirc), way back when, but even their carts have got more expensive of late. Low output MM were also a thing back in the late 70's: My Technics EPC100cMK3 has a ridiculously low output and there was also a Stanton Model ( 880s ?), that was a low output MM.
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Post by michaelw on Mar 20, 2018 11:13:38 GMT 12
there was a unique pioneer MC too that had a user replaceable stylus
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Post by Owen Y on Mar 20, 2018 12:14:23 GMT 12
Interesting, but surely what is needed now are some really good budget priced cartridges. Grado used to do one that was really good value (under $100.00 iirc), way back when, but even their carts have got more expensive of late. Low output MM were also a thing back in the late 70's: My Technics EPC100cMK3 has a ridiculously low output and there was also a Stanton Model ( 880s ?), that was a low output MM. Indeed. The Stanton 98 LZS and 981LZS were also low-output (0.35mV I believe). there was a unique pioneer MC too that had a user replaceable stylus I heard mention of an MC with user-replaceable stylus - but possibly electrical contacts necessary for the coil, so some degradation of signal in exchange for user convenience?
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....
.... in a good way... and still does from time to time as it's on rationed usage .
)