www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/widescreen/story/2018919016/is-there-a-future-for-physical-media

In musicland physical is still strong with regular releases on vinyl, CD, cassette.

Movies have moved wholesale to streaming with little new product hitting local shelves.

A lot of shelf space opened up when Disney stopped selling discs here.

Te Warehouse probably jumped the gun a bit by ceasing to sell movie discs, they bought in vast amounts of old stock from overseas.
I hardly ever left empty handed after a weekly visits to their discount bins

Music sales will continue until the public finally tires of the endless (increasingly irrelevant) reissues and lavish boxsets.

Movies, deader than Elvis.

A good summation. I tend to keep a copy of my play-again movie favourites on disk as they can be all over the place on streaming.

And as Dan Sleven wrote stuff on the streaming platforms can disappear !

Boxing Day, everyone is away and I'm a bit bored so I thought that I might get away with answering this very reasonable question. Yes, physical media (turntables, tone arms and cartridges and quite possibly tape decks and CD players) are on the same trajectory as the onyx, the dodo and the auk - and internal combustion engines. This is simply because because of the limitations in further development of what is a quite agricultural and clumsy way of recording and reproducing music. (I'd say the same about conventional speakers but haven't found anything better, about which most Tannoy, Magnepan and Quad ELS owners would probably concur). Whilst it is true that the best of turntables, arms and cartridges might currently sound better than most current digital technology, we just have to look at say the last 30 years of development in analogue and digital means of recording and retrieving music to see where the future lies. Thirty years or so ago I bought my first CD player, a Marantz CD63SE which was regarded at the time as an affordable and excellent second generation Sigma-Delta masterpiece. In the late 90s I replaced this with a Theta Miles player and DAC whilst not quite the then state of the art (Theta's and Wadia's separates take that particular prize) was significantly better than what my friends had, which pleased me immensely. If I listen to the Theta now, it sounds appalling but I still use it as a transport in my garage system with a R2R MDHT DAC. Now if I go back to my turntable (Linn Sondek, Hadcock 228 arm and Garrott London Decca Gold), this still sounds okay even when compared to more recent offerings. I am similarly mindful that many aficionados swear by their now quite ancient Garrard 301's and period piece SME arms, adding a 12 inch tone arm and perhaps keeping their re-tipped Shure V15 Type 3 or Type 4 cartridges, or even adding a relatively cheap and modified 1960's Denon DL103 to complete their audio nirvana. I am also mindful that those more recently offered (e.g. Richard Kreb's Oma K3 with Schroder tonearm and let's say a Koetzu or Hana cartridge) have gone to quite heroic lengths to improve the genre, accompanied by justifiably ridiculous prices. Do these $100k plus offerings hugely better than the Garrard / SME / Shure or Denon ancestors? Probably, but I doubt the 'hugely' bit. Now consider the improvements to digital. I am currently running a Bluenote streamer / Topping D90SE DAC from a LAN cable under the house and at about $3k all up, it sounds unexpectedly stunning and a world away from the Theta Miles and perhaps even better than my OPPO 205. The trajectory to me is clear. Physical media has little room for improvement and any improvements that are made come at a huge cost. Conversely digital means of recording and retrieving music have improved exponentially with no known upper limit on development, whilst at the same time significantly decreasing in price. There is only one way that this will end. As a corollary don't splash out on the current top shelf of DAC's and streamers which whilst arguably better than today's mid priced offerings like mine, will be bettered by next year's mid priced offerings.

Dec 26, 2023 13:20:30 GMT 12 peter0c said:

Boxing Day, everyone is away and I'm a bit bored so I thought that I might get away with answering this very reasonable question. Yes, physical media (turntables, tone arms and cartridges and quite possibly tape decks and CD players) are on the same trajectory as the onyx, the dodo and the auk - and internal combustion engines. This is simply because because of the limitations in further development of what is a quite agricultural and clumsy way of recording and reproducing music. (I'd say the same about conventional speakers but haven't found anything better, about which most Tannoy, Magnepan and Quad ELS owners would probably concur). Whilst it is true that the best of turntables, arms and cartridges might currently sound better than most current digital technology, we just have to look at say the last 30 years of development in analogue and digital means of recording and retrieving music to see where the future lies. Thirty years or so ago I bought my first CD player, a Marantz CD63SE which was regarded at the time as an affordable and excellent second generation Sigma-Delta masterpiece. In the late 90s I replaced this with a Theta Miles player and DAC whilst not quite the then state of the art (Theta's and Wadia's separates take that particular prize) was significantly better than what my friends had, which pleased me immensely. If I listen to the Theta now, it sounds appalling but I still use it as a transport in my garage system with a R2R MDHT DAC. Now if I go back to my turntable (Linn Sondek, Hadcock 228 arm and Garrott London Decca Gold), this still sounds okay even when compared to more recent offerings. I am similarly mindful that many aficionados swear by their now quite ancient Garrard 301's and period piece SME arms, adding a 12 inch tone arm and perhaps keeping their re-tipped Shure V15 Type 3 or Type 4 cartridges, or even adding a relatively cheap and modified 1960's Denon DL103 to complete their audio nirvana. I am also mindful that those more recently offered (e.g. Richard Kreb's Oma K3 with Schroder tonearm and let's say a Koetzu or Hana cartridge) have gone to quite heroic lengths to improve the genre, accompanied by justifiably ridiculous prices. Do these $100k plus offerings hugely better than the Garrard / SME / Shure or Denon ancestors? Probably, but I doubt the 'hugely' bit. Now consider the improvements to digital. I am currently running a Bluenote streamer / Topping D90SE DAC from a LAN cable under the house and at about $3k all up, it sounds unexpectedly stunning and a world away from the Theta Miles and perhaps even better than my OPPO 205. The trajectory to me is clear. Physical media has little room for improvement and any improvements that are made come at a huge cost. Conversely digital means of recording and retrieving music have improved exponentially with no known upper limit on development, whilst at the same time significantly decreasing in price. There is only one way that this will end. As a corollary don't splash out on the current top shelf of DAC's and streamers which whilst arguably better than today's mid priced offerings like mine, will be bettered by next year's mid priced offerings.

If I may, I've sprinkled some white space like snow or confetti to make your wonderful missive more readable, at least for myself. And carriage returns. Paragraph spacing. One of many possibilities. I could add more... done.

_


Boxing Day, everyone is away and I'm a bit bored so I thought that I might get away with answering this very reasonable question.

Yes, physical media (turntables, tone arms and cartridges and quite possibly tape decks and CD players) are on the same trajectory as the onyx, the dodo and the auk - and internal combustion engines.

This is simply because because of the limitations in further development of what is a quite agricultural and clumsy way of recording and reproducing music.
(I'd say the same about conventional speakers but haven't found anything better, about which most Tannoy, Magnepan and Quad ELS owners would probably concur).

Whilst it is true that the best of turntables, arms and cartridges might currently sound better than most current digital technology, we just have to look at say the last 30 years of development in analogue and digital means of recording and retrieving music to see where the future lies.

Thirty years or so ago I bought my first CD player, a Marantz CD63SE which was regarded at the time as an affordable and excellent second generation Sigma-Delta masterpiece.

In the late 90s I replaced this with a Theta Miles player and DAC whilst not quite the then state of the art (Theta's and Wadia's separates take that particular prize) was significantly better than what my friends had, which pleased me immensely. If I listen to the Theta now, it sounds appalling but I still use it as a transport in my garage system with a R2R MDHT DAC.

Now if I go back to my turntable (Linn Sondek, Hadcock 228 arm and Garrott London Decca Gold), this still sounds okay even when compared to more recent offerings.
I am similarly mindful that many aficionados swear by their now quite ancient Garrard 301's and period piece SME arms, adding a 12 inch tone arm and perhaps keeping their re-tipped Shure V15 Type 3 or Type 4 cartridges, or even adding a relatively cheap and modified 1960's Denon DL103 to complete their audio nirvana.

I am also mindful that those more recently offered (e.g. Richard Kreb's Oma K3 with Schroder tonearm and let's say a Koetzu or Hana cartridge) have gone to quite heroic lengths to improve the genre, accompanied by justifiably ridiculous prices. Do these $100k plus offerings hugely better than the Garrard / SME / Shure or Denon ancestors?

Probably, but I doubt the 'hugely' bit.

Now consider the improvements to digital. I am currently running a Bluenote streamer / Topping D90SE DAC from a LAN cable under the house and at about $3k all up, it sounds unexpectedly stunning and a world away from the Theta Miles and perhaps even better than my OPPO 205. The trajectory to me is clear.

Physical media has little room for improvement and any improvements that are made come at a huge cost. Conversely digital means of recording and retrieving music have improved exponentially with no known upper limit on development, whilst at the same time significantly decreasing in price.

There is only one way that this will end. As a corollary don't splash out on the current top shelf of DAC's and streamers which whilst arguably better than today's mid priced offerings like mine, will be bettered by next year's mid priced offerings.

_


I suppose you could really tweak your post to include links to the named devices, save everybody else looking them up, a la some Stereophile, Analog Planet, or Tracking Angle review.

Godspeed, best of luck!

~ RdM

After that amusing detour... back to the topic at hand, physical vs streamed movies, TV.

Re-reading the original article there is no mention of picture or sound quality.

Streamed video can look very good but the best stream can not compare to the best disc, currently 4k UHD.

Soundwise physical usually stomps streamed audio into the dust, being more open, dynamic and immersive whereas most streamed audio is dull and compressed.

Most of the time.

Jan 3, 2024 20:14:57 GMT 12 michaelw said:

After that amusing detour... back to the topic at hand, physical vs streamed movies, TV.

Re-reading the original article there is no mention of picture or sound quality.

Streamed video can look very good but the best stream can not compare to the best disc, currently 4k UHD.

Soundwise physical usually stomps streamed audio into the dust, being more open, dynamic and immersive whereas most streamed audio is dull and compressed.

Most of the time.

I'll take a leaf out of RdM's editorial book Michael and suggest that you add a triumphant "So There" to the last sentence your short missive. I would agree that some DVD's (e.g. St Leonard Cohen live) better the same CD and possibly streaming but not MQA and HD titles but as I don't have Netflix or use UTube that much (dumb TV), I don't have an opinion on the picture quality. The sonic improvement without which I would not use a streamer, is hard wiring with LAN cable from my router to my streamer and using a quality UBS cable to and from my DAC. If I am wrong this week about streaming generally being of better quality than CD and very very close to the best of other physical media, I will be right next week. That is what I was trying to convey in my humble blog.

For music maybe,

Movies ? No way.

Which was what the original story was about.

Jan 3, 2024 20:14:57 GMT 12 michaelw said:

After that amusing detour... back to the topic at hand, physical vs streamed movies, TV.

Re-reading the original article there is no mention of picture or sound quality.

Streamed video can look very good but the best stream can not compare to the best disc, currently 4k UHD.

Soundwise physical usually stomps streamed audio into the dust, being more open, dynamic and immersive whereas most streamed audio is dull and compressed.

Most of the time.

I’m going to have to disagree on the streaming quality side as my experience is streaming is at least as good as CD if bit rates are sufficient.

Audio Science Review did review the Bluesound Node but didn’t test the streaming side as he gave up with an issue with it’s software (something I found amusingly ironic as he was an ex-vp at Microsoft)

Streaming testing done on the wi-fi of a recent version Airport Express gave exceedingly good results and you would expect other modern streaming platforms to be at least this good.

kenrockwell.com/apple/airport-express-audio-quality-2014.htm

Talking about movies people, movies !

Ken Rockwell ?

Is he still relevant ?

🤣

Jan 4, 2024 10:01:59 GMT 12 michaelw said:

Talking about movies people, movies !

Ken Rockwell ?

Is he still relevant ?

Don’t get the reference but it’s the numbers that matter.

That Apple review was from 2014

As far as video goes I don’t think there’s a big videophile market in the same way there is a big audiophile market(in all it’s forms) so it’s pretty much a broad consumer centric thing and current streaming quality is good enough.

There’s also things that change the game a  bit eg I watch most of my video on an ipad. The screen is less than half a meter from my eyes. That’s the equivalent of around a 90 or 100 inch tv screen. Even at  2k(or whatever) it’s a far better experience than higher def at a distance. My expectations of watching a big screen at a distance are fairly low now and it would mainly be for a cinema audio experience…

Jan 4, 2024 10:56:10 GMT 12 michaelw said:

That Apple review was from 2014

So?

Hasn't Apple moved on ?

Compared to audio the video market is huge, full of traditional movie watchers and the new breed of high end gamers who are influencing the HT market.

A few years ago Marantz had an HDMI problem that only affected 4k XBox users under certain copnditions, they bought out a temporary black box solution, then replaced the offending HDMI chips.

Good enough is leading to the dumbing down of technology and innovation.

Look at the mess that is Dolby Atmos.

Jan 4, 2024 12:04:48 GMT 12 michaelw said:

Hasn't Apple moved on ?

I gave that example because it was one of the few comprehensive tests I have found done on a streamer using streamed data as opposed to the huge amount of data on DACs. If they could be that good in 2014 I would assume the current crop from various manufacturers are at least as good or better.

Compared to audio the video market is huge, full of traditional movie watchers and the new breed of high end gamers who are influencing the HT market.

A few years ago Marantz had an HDMI problem that only affected 4k XBox users under certain copnditions, they bought out a temporary black box solution, then replaced the offending HDMI chips.

Good enough is leading to the dumbing down of technology and innovation.

Look at the mess that is Dolby Atmos.

You’re probably right there but perhaps more of a content market than quality. As a gauge I see Facebook awash with various audio groups and film groups but not so much videophile groups. ie video quality. Just my take.

Facebook ?

Should I look or not ...

Jan 4, 2024 12:04:48 GMT 12 michaelw said:

Hasn't Apple moved on ?

Compared to audio the video market is huge, full of traditional movie watchers and the new breed of high end gamers who are influencing the HT market.

A few years ago Marantz had an HDMI problem that only affected 4k XBox users under certain copnditions, they bought out a temporary black box solution, then replaced the offending HDMI chips.

Good enough is leading to the dumbing down of technology and innovation.

Look at the mess that is Dolby Atmos.

Gamers influence on the HT market is very much over-stated.

Serious gamers are sitting in front of 32" OLED gaming monitors with mice and keyboards - with audio through their headphones.

This is the key part as game chat / party chat is a BIG thing. Powered monitors / studio speakers are a little side-consideration compared to the headset market.

If you're producing videos for Twitch / TikTok etc then maybe they get utilised, but not for actual gaming.

Home cinema gamers are filthy casuals who sit on the couch with a wireless controller and use their consoles on rare occasions.

Also... I'm one of them.

At the same time, I have probably used external speakers 2-3 times in the last year, instead choosing between a couple of $5-600 headsets.

Again, being 'comm'd up' with the boys is far more important and headsets rule the roost.

HDMI 2.1 considerations like VRR / ALLM etc aren't a factor, in the same way that only PC gamer pixel peepers really care about bit-rate.

What gamers want is high frame rates (consoles are still restricted to 120Hz and even then games have to rip the guts out of the colours / resolution on consoles to hit this figure), reduced lag and stable lobbies.

HDMI 2.1a is still a mess, with an even newer version being announced that will implement features promised in the current version, but turned out to be impossible with the current silicon.

24Gbps through-put is all we probably all we need at this point, but users on forums ask for 48Gbps... despite probably never having logging into a sweaty COD lobby in their life.

Also - if you think Atmos is a mess, look at DTS:X and Auro 3D

I know a few who do prescribe to your 32/mice/KB/headphones systems but the majority I know are old retired guys with big ass 70" OLEDs running full surround sound, fancy computers etc. playing their favourite racing sims.

The great dumbing down gathers momentum

www.stereophile.com/content/dolby-atmos-bleak-shadow

Starting to really notice the gaps at JB now.

I bet the bottom row were all dvds on Jazz and Bjork...good riddance for ever.

Yep, I bought them all!