I decided to start a new thread as the subject does not really tie in with the old thread (https://darklantern.proboards.com/thread/2631/bypass-fuse-attenuator-on-magnepan?page=1&scrollTo=27423

My main objective is to manage the signal from the phono stage and from the DAC before getting amplified by the Hegel H190 amp and sub. The crossover in the Denon AVR is fine for home theatre audio, but I don't want to run the phono and DAC audio through the AVR, and I still want to use the sub with the Maggies. But I believe the Maggies should sound better if the bass of a full-range signal is separated out and handled by the sub. So I presume I need 2 active crossovers with sub output, one for the phono line into the amp, and one for the DAC line into the amp. (I have used a MiniDSP 2x4HD for sub and room correction for my AVR output, and I could try it with the DAC output, but it seems counter-intuitive to use it after the DAC has already performed one digital-to-analogue conversion)

This is new territory for me, and I would appreciate any advice re suitable crossovers - would something like this be appropriate? www.ebay.com/itm/Behringer-Super-X-Pro-CX2310-2-3-way-Crossover-with-subwoofer-output/333566258111?hash=item4daa192bbf:g:CB0AAOSwY2peh6ha

Or is there a DIY kit that would suit my needs? Using something like this: www.marchandelec.com/xm1-electronic-crossover.html

Or should I just buy another miniDSP 2x4HD and run the phono and DAC output through them?

Feb 24, 2021 11:13:31 GMT 12 steviewunda said:

I decided to start a new thread as the subject does not really tie in with the old thread (https://darklantern.proboards.com/thread/2631/bypass-fuse-attenuator-on-magnepan?page=1&scrollTo=27423

Or is there a DIY kit that would suit my needs? Using something like this: www.marchandelec.com/xm1-electronic-crossover.html

Oops I hadn't noticed this when I posted the below under the old thread!

(maybe I should go back and delete it).

(I just happened to be browsing the site below yesterday...)

You might find something useful here?
sound-au.com/projects-0.htm#xvr
There's a Linkwitz-Riley alignment one like the Marchand (with a calculator to select values) and some other sub ones.
The ones with a PCB image in the far right column have PCBs available.

Watching this closely, I use MiniDSP 2x4HD for crossing over to subs @ 200Hz to relieve my fullrangers of big bass duties and it works well, but I feel that some of the magic is lost in adc/dac. Where it does perform well is running macbook direct into USB (I feel that this is due to cutting out the adc stage and the dac only done in MiniDSP). Looking for a better solution.

We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.

Feb 24, 2021 12:16:09 GMT 12 RdM said:

You might find something useful here?
sound-au.com/projects-0.htm#xvr
There's a Linkwitz-Riley alignment one like the Marchand (with a calculator to select values) and some other sub ones.
The ones with a PCB image in the far right column have PCBs available.

Thanks RdM - hopefully someone with some electronics skills will give some guidance

Feb 24, 2021 15:55:05 GMT 12 papahemi said:

Watching this closely, I use MiniDSP 2x4HD for crossing over to subs @ 200Hz to relieve my fullrangers of big bass duties and it works well, but I feel that some of the magic is lost in adc/dac. Where it does perform well is running macbook direct into USB (I feel that this is due to cutting out the adc stage and the dac only done in MiniDSP). Looking for a better solution.

Yes it would be nice to avoid that double conversion if possible

Found this:https://www.xkitz.com/products/linkwitz-riley-2-way-active-crossover-fully-assembled-xover-2

Review here:

Marchand offer two and three way crossovers in valve and solid state format. I haven't listened to either so can't really comment. One that I can comment on is the First Watt B4 which uses unobtainium Toshiba Jfets, Nelson Pass's favourite device. The B4 has internal switches for 6, 12, 18 and 24dB per octave poles and internal switches to select cr5ossover frequencies from 25 to 6275hz in 25hz intervals which is the ultimate in flexibilty. They turn up on eBay and Reno HiFi from time to time. Mark from Reno is extremely helpful (he is a personal friend of Nelson) and might be able to help you. The link is www.firstwatt.com/pdf/prod_b4_man.pdf

Thanks Peter0c - some googling suggests they are unlikely to sell much under US$1000, and I would need two, so a bit pricey for me I'm afraid

I use the xkitz 2 way crossover as I wanted to get away from digital crossovers. I only use the low pass signal to go to the subs (I use one on each channel), as the ESL speakers I run have very good passive crossovers. In my system the xkitz unit is in between the preamp and power amp, and I use a 30Hz filter as the sub see’s only the very low portion of audible range given the full range ESLs go into the 30-40Hz territory. I also run the crossover using a good quality linear psu. The crossover is pretty good value for $$ and it’s also handy that you can change out crossover point with the modules you purchase from them for not much money
Cheers
Matt

Thanks Matt, I think I'll try the Xkitz 2-way. I'll be using them in a similar config before the Hegel H190 which serves as a power amp. Which psu are you using?

Any suggestions for crossover frequency between my sub and the Magnepan 1.7's? I have found that I can get a slightly flatter response in REW when I set the crossover frequency to 150hz, but that is using the MiniDSP which also has time delay and EQ capabilities which the Xkitz won't have. At $11 per crossover frequency module, I could try 80, 100, and 150hz. Thoughts?

Because I'll need 4 crossovers, does that mean I'll need 4 separate psu's - or can I supply more than 1 with one psu?

The Behringer CX2310 has been used in home hifi setups succsesfully. Might be worth a look but being pro gear it has XLR connectivity only so adaptors or custom cables may be required.

Thanks Harvey - I'll check it out. XLR is not a problem

I like the sound of this one at www.ebay.com.au/itm/203075211117

It appears to be house-trained

"These are really easy to use crossover and if you have a simple 2 or 3 amp system this will work just great! Very clean sound no piss or hum at all and nice blend between the crossover ranges."

Should save a bundle on x-over litter

Definitely you want one that's already been house-trained

DarkLantern blog - darklanternforowen.wordpress.com

The linear psu I got was just an ebay buy - it has two digital readouts on the front showing the supply voltage, and two outputs at the back. I run one output to two crossovers. I see that xkitz offer a psu with onboard transformer so you just need to hook up mains power, so you could maybe look at putting that in the same enclosure as the xovers? Was also just thinking about your proposed setup - how will you manage volume adjustment - with two sources and their own xovers feeding into the hegel and the active sub, looks like effectively the hegel is just power amp? If that is the case, maybe a possibility is to either/and put in a source selector up front to rationalise how many crossovers you need, and then if source selector had master volume control, the individual crossovers have their own gain adjust to manage levels between the low range and high range (set once then manage listening levels on the master). Apologies if I have misunderstood the design here - I have trialled a few different crossovers in my main system - started with all passive, went toward all dsp, moved back to passive and analog active for the sub - the latter is the best fit for me but I do have a preamp which has an inbuilt feature of two separate gain stages and outputs- one for low range, one for high range (all valve based) - the master volume on the pre adjusts listening levels, and you can adjust the gain ratio of high frequency to low frequency to dial it in to your taste - I feel like I am at the end of a long journey with this design as it stands now
Cheers
Matt

Yes Matt, the volume adjustment is a work in progress...luckily I don't have to accommodate WAF issues ;-)
Currently I use the Denon AVR remote for movie, video or TV watching - the Denon powers the centre and surround speakers, the Denon pre-out feeds the HT bypass on the Hegel which powers the front mains (Maggies), and one of the Denon sub outs feeds the sub. So the Denon remote controls volume for all movie, tv and video watching.

I use the Hegel remote to adjust volume when music listening, whether HTPC based digital files via USB to DAC and then Input 1 on Hegel, or vinyl via phono stage to Input 2 on Hegel. And the sub is fed via a Hegel output. This would be replaced with the new crossover's output.

So there's a bit of remote juggling going on, as well as the keyboard of course. Probably the clunkiest procedure is having to change Windows sound device when changing from video (with Dolby, THX, etc) to audio via USB ASIO DAC driver - both in Windows AND JRiver.

I have yet to grapple with the finer workings of my programmable remote, but I suspect I would need to learn some macro skills to automate driver changes like that. I'm open to suggestions but, to be honest I'm ok with a little bumbling around.
You mentioned a source selector with master volume control - isn't that a preamp? ;-)

If I go the Xkitz 2-way route, can someone clarify what I'll need for 2 stereo crossovers (one between DAC and amp, and one between phono stage and amp). I'm assuming I'll need 4 2-way Xover-2's (www.xkitz.com/collections/active-crossovers-and-bi-amplifiers-1/products/linkwitz-riley-2-way-active-crossover-fully-assembled-xover-2), crossover configuration modules as appropriate (www.xkitz.com/collections/active-crossovers-and-bi-amplifiers-1/products/xo-module-for-use-with-xover-2-and-xamps), and power supplies as appropriate (www.xkitz.com/collections/power-supplies). Can I house all this in one case and share the power supply? I have almost no electronics skills and would appreciate advice re which psu I should purchase, whether I need more than one psu for 4 x-over boards, and what x-over frequency(s) I should specify for the configuration modules. Please let me know if I'm expecting too much hand-holding from this forum ;-)

It looks like I'll need 2 of the psu's at www.xkitz.com/collections/power-supplies/products/audio-grade-dc-power-supply-bipolar-10w-xaps-10wb They can power up to 3 x-overs, but I'll need to power 4

It just occurred to me that if I use the Hegel amp for volume control, the bass is not going to be adjusted because the sub output from the crossover won't go through the Hegel - the left and right high pass output will go through the Hegel, but the low pass output would have to go directly to the sub, and wouldn't be subject to Hegel amp volume adjustments. Which brings me back to what Mattb was saying about a source selector with volume control. Is this different from a preamp? Google will no doubt be my friend, but if anyone can help - please feel free ;-)

The way I see it you place the x-over between preamp and power amp. In my case the Sansui has pre-out power in sockets and x-over will go here with one of the high low going back to power amp, the other to another power amp. It seems to be simpler (as in this case) to have all inputs already up to line level and selectable to be fed to x-over, thus only needing 2x Xkitz 2-way and one powersupply.

We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.

Thanks Papahemi - yes I think I need a preamp and one x-over on the output to the Hegel. I liked the sound of a Prima Luna 200 preamp that I trialed a few weeks back. That would give me the tube-rolling option to indulge my current love of experimentation ;-)

You could connect the subwoofer to the Hegel speaker terminals if your sub has high level speaker connections on the back

Deano

Manager & Product specialist at Rapallo AV & HI-FI

Hi all - I went the DEQX route in the end (DEQX HDP Express ii). It's a DSP/DAC/pre-amp/crossover, and the DAC in combo with the speaker calibration, room correction, crossover and EQ sounds good to me, so I sold my RME DAC and MiniDSP, which covered a decent part of the cost of the DEQX. It's highly configurable and mostly non-automated, so I have variables for Africa to play with...should keep my inner geek happy for a while.

Per DEQX's recommendations, I measured my Maggies separately outdoors on raised platforms (see pic) before calibrating, then measured the subs and performed room correction and subs integration. You can store 4 different profiles with different settings (calibration file, crossover freq. and slope, time alignment, EQ adjustments, etc) per configuration - and you can save as many configurations as you like. You can also store up to 100 'Preference EQ's' to compensate for recording variations, tonal imbalance, etc. These different profiles and Preference EQ's are all available via remote.

I still have an indeterminate amount of tweaking to do, but early impressions are good - music is sounding transparent with good imaging, subs are sounding tight and articulate. I was surprised how little difference in time delay was sufficient to change the cohesiveness of the soundstage.

May 10, 2021 15:25:07 GMT 12 steviewunda said:

Love your dedicated listening room!!!

Good Job, sounds like it's solved all you sub integration problems, enjoy!

Manager & Product specialist at Rapallo AV & HI-FI

….“I was surprised how little difference in time delay was sufficient to change the cohesiveness of the soundstage.”
I’ve noticed this too, it’s quite critical!

AMR-iFi R&D

mili seconds, makes a huge difference here is my crossover data for my active La Scala using Xilica XP4080

Manager & Product specialist at Rapallo AV & HI-FI

Passive crossovers ... large wall-mounted ones displayed as art.
Just as a contrast to the Active Crossover thread.







Beautiful objects?

May 10, 2021 21:59:56 GMT 12 RdM said:

Passive crossovers ... large wall-mounted ones displayed as art.
Just as a contrast to the Active Crossover thread.







Beautiful objects?

That's cool

Manager & Product specialist at Rapallo AV & HI-FI

May 10, 2021 19:18:38 GMT 12 deano1974 said:

Good Job, sounds like it's solved all you sub integration problems, enjoy!

Thanks Deano - i've got a lot to learn yet but it feels like the right direction ;-)