Pundit
Post by peter0c on Dec 7, 2020 10:23:47 GMT 12
First order Butterworth crossovers (6dB per octave roll-off) are favoured by many enthusiasts because they suffer the least insertion loss (3 to 6 dB in typical multiway crossovers) and are said to be phase coherent. In other words it is recommended that tweeters fed by a single cap should be wired in phase with the bass / midrange driver and all will be well. This is I think untrue since the use of a single cap results in a 90 degree voltage lag (in effect the capacitor has to charge up before discharging, but this is probably an oversimplification) such that it probably doesn't matter whether the tweeter is wired in phase or out of phase. Other people have pointed out that having a first order crossover results in a combing effect between the interaction between the two driver's outputs beyond the crossover point resulting in a series of reinforcements and cancellations. Some recommend for example that an additional supertweeter should face the rear (Snell E and the far-field version of the famous Cain and Cain Abbey) or point up to reduce serious combing effects. (This probably results in distributing the combing i.e. more but at a lower magnitude). My solution is to use second order Linkwitz Reily crossover to feed my supertweeters 180 degrees out of electrical phase (i.e. polarities reversed) which I have convinced myself is better sounding. All very interesting but here is another perspective on the issue (http://customanalogue.com/elsinore/elsinore_17.htm) which argues that the electrical phase of say a tweeter is not the same thing as acoustic phase. For example the physical movement of say a tweeter dome turns positive (i.e. starts moving forward) immediately after the electrical phase is maximally negative i.e. at the bottom of the sine wave. I'd be interested in what members make of this argument. At issue I guess is the difference between electrical and acoustic phase.
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Dec 7, 2020 14:49:39 GMT 12
See this is why I build other people's designs. I sort of follow where you are going but my head hurts... đ
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Post by Owen Y on Dec 7, 2020 18:57:10 GMT 12
I am currently using a 1st Order 'Solen' split xover, with tweets opp. phase. Still a work in progress.
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Pundit
Post by peter0c on Dec 9, 2020 12:33:55 GMT 12
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Post by Owen Y on Dec 10, 2020 8:51:33 GMT 12
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Post by michaelw on Dec 10, 2020 10:37:18 GMT 12
When I read first order croosover, the late Jim Thiel comes to mind. He was a leading proponent of first order crossovers as well as being aware of the drawbacks.
PS How could I forget Robin Marshall's wonderful Epos speakers ?
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Pundit
Post by peter0c on Dec 15, 2020 12:28:59 GMT 12
More head-hurting boffin stuff. I spotted on TM a reference (Listing #: 2902290045) to lattice crossovers in which it is claimed there are zero phase or time delays. Just like the Solen Split I have never heard of them but Wikipedia was close to hand except that the mathematically inclined article has been removed, presumably for correction. Next reference, Saint Nelson (https://www.passlabs.com/technical_article/phase-coherent-crossover-networks/) provides some explanation but is more intended for active crossovers. I am dimly aware that some of the later Tannoys employed a lattice circuit in the high pass section to correct a phase anomaly (by providing a time delay) resulting from the shortened hf horn. (The earlier horns i.e. Monitor Gold used deeper Alnico magnets and so their horn was necessarily longer.) Has anyone on DL had any experience with lattice (as compared to the usual ladder) crossovers?
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Pundit
Post by peter0c on Jan 31, 2021 8:38:50 GMT 12
Another interesting article on crossover designs, this time subtractive crossovers. And more hurt heads I guess. www.labjc.com/?p=4595As a taster, the author has harsh words for the Altec Model 17 aluminum horn tweeter, to wit "It is an extreme effort to make these horns barely listenable⌠but dipped in tar and sand, packed in clay, covered with felt âdotsâ and bathed in C37 varnish⌠cut or ground away the dividers, glued âwookie hairâ to the edge of the horns⌠etc. good fucking luck. youâll need it." Mmmm, where might have I heard similar sentiments before?
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