Post by sub on Apr 3, 2019 17:13:42 GMT 12
These iconic speakers were in production between 1984 and 1996 - bi-Wire capable from 1990.
Have long lusted for a pair, but out of my budget when new. Don’t come up on TM very often, and the odd one that has popped up until now was either a bit shabby or overpriced.
A pair came up last week and not long after it was listed (no buy now) I bid the reserve price, then waited 7 days for the end of auction. 73 watchers but at the end of the day I was the only bidder. I’ve said it before - it seems TM is becoming a spectator sport! That I was the only bidder makes me realise they were probably overpriced! Ahh well, have always wanted a pair, and it is only money!
This pair are the most immaculate ones I have seen. A long time very fastidious owner and in the more expensive rosewood finish. They are pre 1990 as only one set of binding posts. Haven’t seen them in the flesh as yet - pick up tomorrow and will set up over the weekend. Will post pics then. Seller has offered audition at pick up, but he reports no issues and sounding perfect. Certainly the sellers photos reveal speakers that look like new.
There is a lot of discussion in other forums about these speakers, and most users rave about their performance. Known issues are -—
- rubber surrounds of the horizontal opposed woofers can rot, but can be repaired;
- the ferro fluid in the T33 tweeters can harden up, but replacements are readily available;
- the caps in the sophisticated cross over can fail, again replacements are available.
Falcon Acoustics UK provide replacement tweeters and matched capacitor sets at reasonable prices. Other brands also available. Hopefully they will not need work for a while yet.
Will let you know how I get on.
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Post by michaelw on Apr 3, 2019 17:22:35 GMT 12
pre-90 so no kube ?
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Post by sub on Apr 3, 2019 17:34:30 GMT 12
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Apr 3, 2019 18:04:23 GMT 12
I have fond memories listening to a pair of these with a Plinius amp at Smiths Hifi back in the day, my first real introduction to high end hifi. My budget extended to Q90's and Rotel amp but I got a lot of enjoyment from that set up.
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Post by Owen Y on Apr 3, 2019 20:20:58 GMT 12
Some may be old enough to remember that the (post 1990 model) KEF 104/2 graced the cover of Hifi News & Record Review. (I think I still have that issue somewhere.) 
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Post by cartridgeguyonline on Apr 4, 2019 15:32:14 GMT 12
Ah yes I spotted those on Tm as well as the 105/2 ? that were on at the same time. The ones with the 15 inch driver and seperate head unit with midrange and tweeter. Very power hungry IIRC. Heard a pair early 90's and thought they were fantastic, but way out of my budget at the time. Wonder what I would think of them now ? Didnt go for huge $ on TM either...
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Post by michaelw on Apr 4, 2019 16:07:43 GMT 12
there was a pair of 105/2 sold on tm for $2020
i thought that was a bit steep...
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Pundit
Post by raveydave on Apr 4, 2019 19:57:14 GMT 12
Congratulations on your purchase sub! They're definitely one of those speakers that I've lusted after as well, and the pair you've bought look like they've been very well cared for. I think you did very well! Will be interested to read your impressions of them when you get them set up at home.
I have fond memories listening to a pair of these with a Plinius amp at Smiths Hifi back in the day... aaahhhh more fond memories... at the back of the Mid-City Plaza, before their move to the villa in Mt Eden?
Smiths Sound always had a great display of proper big KEF floorstanders and those early (UK made) Monitor Audio towers... remember when they first came out with the ceramic coated metal cones (c-cam?). SO desirable!
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Post by andrewp on Apr 4, 2019 20:24:03 GMT 12
Had a pair of these. Very nice. Great value if in nice condition. There was a pair on Stereonet in Au recently for $1000 from memory. At that money they would be a great purchase!
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Post by sub on Apr 5, 2019 17:35:26 GMT 12
I have fond memories listening to a pair of these with a Plinius amp at Smiths Hifi back in the day, my first real introduction to high end hifi. My budget extended to Q90's and Rotel amp but I got a lot of enjoyment from that set up. Are you sure it was a pair of Q90s? I thought the Q series were much later. My first real loudspeakers were KEF C95s, but couldn’t afford a decent amp to drive them, and the low powered ones I tried kept blowing tweeters. Ended up trading them for Mission 753s, but still hankered after that KEF sound - and now I finally have it, after an excursion with KEF LS50s - perfect near field monitors, but lacked that certain something. first saw the 104/2s at Smiths Sounds as well. Enjoyed shopping there, great gear and helpful staff.
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Post by sub on Apr 5, 2019 17:58:15 GMT 12
Got them home today. Super impressed, they are almost in showroom condition, except for a very small chip on a bottom rear edge on one, even the rear panel is finished in rosewood. Had a good audition at the sellers before parting with my cash. Absolutely no faults discerned, all drivers working as they should. Very helpful guy and right into hifi - enjoyed our conversation. Seller selling on behalf of his 85 yr old father, who was stated to be fastidious with his gear - it shows. Have set them up at home - ideally should be a metre from the rear wall, but being a shared living room have to be happy with 600mm. Listened to two albums so far - Diana Krall on cd, and Linds Ronstadt (What’s New) on LP. There was an immediate sense that everything was just right! The balance between bass, mid and tweeter is spot on. They make CDs sound like music! At the sellers the speakers were on the end of a middle of the road cd player and separate dac, running to a UK made Icon tube Pre-amp, to a Rotel Michi power amp. At home my CD player is a Rotel RCD990, TT LP 12, Ittok LVII, Ortofon 2M Black, Pure Audio Vinyl and Plinius 8150. The sound from both systems was similar, except the tube Pre introduced a slightly more delicate bloom, especially on Diana Kralls voice. They are pleasant to look at, not too obtrusive if a little boxy compared to modern speakers with rounded shapes and edges. But to me they look just fine and no complaints from my housemate as yet!  
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Post by colinf on Apr 5, 2019 18:32:05 GMT 12
The 8150 would be a good match with the big Kefs, which IIRC like lots of quality power.
AMR-iFi R&D
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Pundit
Post by harvey on Apr 5, 2019 19:26:02 GMT 12
I have fond memories listening to a pair of these with a Plinius amp at Smiths Hifi back in the day, my first real introduction to high end hifi. My budget extended to Q90's and Rotel amp but I got a lot of enjoyment from that set up. Are you sure it was a pair of Q90s? I thought the Q series were much later. My first real loudspeakers were KEF C95s, but couldn’t afford a decent amp to drive them, and the low powered ones I tried kept blowing tweeters. Ended up trading them for Mission 753s, but still hankered after that KEF sound - and now I finally have it, after an excursion with KEF LS50s - perfect near field monitors, but lacked that certain something. first saw the 104/2s at Smiths Sounds as well. Enjoyed shopping there, great gear and helpful staff. Yeah, the first Q series came out in the early 90's us.kef.com/explore-kef/kef-museum/1990s/q60-q80-q90They were in Mt Eden in those days, always had great service from them. Glad you're happy with the new speakers, I had a feeling you wouldn't be dissapointed.
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Post by sub on Apr 17, 2019 9:23:56 GMT 12
Have had them running for a while now, and while still super impressed most of the time, am becoming aware of little things that don’t seem quite right.
In hindsight, my audition at pick up was a bit lacking, as the only cd the seller played was one of Diana Krall. While she sounded gorgeous I should have asked for something a bit more demanding. Performers such as Krall, Ronstadt, Billie Holliday, Jennifer Warnes, and Doobie Brothers, sounds just great. The midrange performance is spot on, but Pink Floyd and complex classical doesn’t fare so well. The higher notes can be a bit splashy and some tenor and soprano voices have an edge to them that is a little unpleasant. Or is it that these speakers are giving exactly what is on the recording?!!
I have ordered a replacement set of capacitors for each speaker from Falcon Acoustics, and will also be having the woofer donuts replaced. If that doesn’t fix things, will save up for new tweeters.
Also a little disappointed re bass performance. Despite the massive bass enclosure with two 8 inch woofers, the specs say bass only down to 55Hz. One of my fondest aural memories is listening to Pink Floyd through my Kef C95s. They had the identical, coupled cavity bass set up, and they energised the whole room. Mind you, they were sitting on a concrete slab floor, whereas these are on a wooden suspended floor, so I guess that would make a big difference. Not that bass isn’t there, it is fast and tuneful, but doesn’t “flap your trouser legs”!
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Post by Owen Y on Apr 17, 2019 11:26:10 GMT 12
The low bass will not be functioning at all well with those doughnut seals missing - the internal bass cabinet volumes will be all wrong, as the chambers will be unsealed & leaking, the LF drivers will be fighting each other..... Re. the caps, they are 20-30 yrs old & will be degraded, affecting the HFs & also the crossover blending. It will be a new l'spkr after refurbing 
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Post by michaelw on Apr 17, 2019 11:53:19 GMT 12
if you want bass extension (down to 35hz +/-2db) you need the kube equaliser.
from diy audio fourm
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Post by sub on Apr 30, 2019 11:24:28 GMT 12
I have ordered a set of replacement capacitors from Falcon Acoustics, UK. When they arrive will take to Auckland to have donuts replaced on the bass cones and the crossovers caps replaced.
Still tossing up whether to dismantle the speakers myself (not a particularly difficult job, thanks to YouTube videos) or simply have the entire job done by the experts. I would save 50% of the cost by doing it myself. Hence my query in another post about best soldering irons, as I would need to desolder the speaker wires from each bass unit, then solder back on when repaired. Just visited my Dr and he has prescribed me some beta blockers. If that remedies my shaking hands caused by essential tremor, then will have a go myself. Had first dose today and results seem promising.
Will either use Audiomark or Axent - they both give the same estimate of cost. Audiomark is recommended on this forum, but have had satisfactory results from Axent as well. Anyone have an opinion re which one to choose?
I am then left with another dilemma - what to replace the T33 tweeters with? Again a fairly simple DIY job.
It seems I have two choices, either a Vifa DX25TG-59-04, at £20 each ex UK, or Morel MDT 29-4, at $54US each ex USA. The specs for each seem similar, and are described as being excellent replacements for the T33. Have been unable to find reviews comparing them. There is quite a difference in price, but in this case does higher price mean better quality? Anyone here have experience with either of these brands?
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Post by Owen Y on Apr 30, 2019 11:33:00 GMT 12
They usually recommend care be taken when soldering to tweeters, as the wires/joints are thin & excess heat can damage the tweeter.
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Post by sub on Apr 30, 2019 13:20:10 GMT 12
They usually recommend care be taken when soldering to tweeters, as the wires/joints are thin & excess heat can damage the tweeter. Yes, Colin’s uses 60W soldering iron for this job, for the same reason - needing quite a bit of best, but not too much.
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Post by colinf on Apr 30, 2019 19:31:33 GMT 12
Yes, be very careful soldering tweeter connections. Too much heat or too much time heating it will melt the plastic that holds the terminal on. Make sure the connections are clean and are ready to take solder first, then make the joint with the soldering iron quickly. (Maybe practise on wires or cables first, so you know what your iron is capable of!)
AMR-iFi R&D
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Post by colinf on Apr 30, 2019 19:37:01 GMT 12
Both tweeters are good but I like Morels myself, they sound nice!
AMR-iFi R&D
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Post by sub on Apr 30, 2019 20:16:17 GMT 12
Thanks Colin
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Post by michaelw on Apr 30, 2019 20:17:41 GMT 12
ditto colin, my images use the morel supreme tweeter and carbon fibre/rohacell mid/bass. 
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Post by sub on May 20, 2019 12:30:27 GMT 12
After replacing all the capacitors on the xovers, now have had donuts replaced. I have reassembled them and have been up and running for two days.
I know it will take a few hours for the caps to settle in, but so far am super impressed. I may not need to replace the tweeters after all, as the edginess previously experienced has gone - the problem must have been in the xovers not the tweeters. Both speakers are identical in loudness now, and the balance from bass to treble is smooth and spot on. The midrange is particularly beguiling.
When taking things apart I found dates stamped on all the different parts, presumably date of manufacture. The woofers, midrange and tweeters have dates in April and May 1990, but they must have sat on the shelf for a while, as the cabinet is dated 22 November 1990. But date of assembly of course will be different.
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