Post by Owen Y on Jan 31, 2019 13:18:04 GMT 12
Most vinyl enthusiasts here will be well-practised on this but here's a useful reminder guide by audioFi.net, a Malaysian website. audiofi.net/2019/01/turntable-set-up-made-easy-somewhat/I would just add the following comments: Pivot-to-Spindle distance - is not super critical, because it just means a slight change in the following - overhang & offset angle (slotted headshells allow these adjustments). VTA - IME, when using manufacturer;s recommended VTF (Vert Tracking Force), having the cartridge-top level with record is usually a good place to start (once any 'suspension' running-in time has taken place). (See diagrammatic explanation of VTA & SRA below.) Anti-skating - a difficult one because Skating forces are varying, but I don't think that the blank record method is recognised as being a good method - I would start according to the tonearm manufacturer's instructions / settings.  Azimuth - it sometimes pays to check that the cartridge is sitting perfectly vertical in relation the the level record surface, when seen from the front - although not all tonearms have any adjustment. (Soundsmith, for example, recommend shimming under the headshell if this needs tweaking.) You can use a mirror or one of those clear acrylic, parallel-line devices (as below - the same gadget can be useful for checking headshell-VTA).   
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Post by cooksferry on Feb 1, 2019 6:41:36 GMT 12
I have one of those clear acrylic, parallel-line devices. Only thing to be aware of is that some , like mine, come with the markings in black and if you have carbon arms that makes life rather difficult. Black against black doesn't work well.
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Pundit
Post by neilsan on Feb 1, 2019 8:24:18 GMT 12
Bought one as well cooksferry.Very handy.
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Post by Graham on Feb 1, 2019 8:50:39 GMT 12
I find it is easier, and I think more accurate, to place a tiny spirit level on top of the headshell. It also allows checking and/or adjustment of initial VTA and azimuth at the same time.
I have found that sometimes the headshell and arm are not exactly parallel so it is better to align the headshell.
Of course this is assuming that the top and bottom surfaces of the headshell are also parallel ! The little bubble level I use is only 0.26grams in weight so no danger of overstressing the cantilever.
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Post by Owen Y on Mar 12, 2019 8:42:24 GMT 12
Interesting branding on mine  (US$3.40, free shipping.)  Replaces my DIY cardboard template... 
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Post by Owen Y on Mar 12, 2019 8:43:57 GMT 12
And this is the bubble level method that Graham describes... 
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Post by sub on Mar 25, 2019 17:34:49 GMT 12
Just checking my set up today, found a term in my manual I do not understand - “mounting distance” is recommended to be 211mm.
What does that refer to? Is it related to overhang, in my case recommended to be 18mm?
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Post by sub on Mar 25, 2019 18:20:56 GMT 12
Ok, penny dropped! The instructions I was looking at related to setting up the Ittok LVII arm, so mounting distance relates to placement on the arm board. Not something I need to be concerned with!
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Post by sub on Mar 26, 2019 10:06:35 GMT 12
Bought these off TM, and arrived yesterday, hence my above two posts.  both solidly constructed and they will last , even though the protractor simply confirmed that the paper one I printed from the Vinyl Engine site is accurate! A bit expensive at $15 each, but they will last and give me peace of mind! Came with a pouch for the azimuth/vta guide and a magnifying plastic thingy to help. The protractor reveals that my overhang is 20mm rather than the 18mm recommended. Is that variation ok, or should I change it? Rather not as it involves taking the arm off before loosening the headshell screws - not that it is a difficult job, just intricate and time consuming.
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Post by Graham on Mar 26, 2019 11:31:24 GMT 12
Hi Sub.
It depends if you are using Baerwald or Stevensons alignment !!!!!
Baerwald uses null points of 120.9mm and 66mm, while Stevensons uses null points of 117.4mm and 60.32 mm.
The Baerwald alignment usually results in the cartridge being further away from the pivot by 2 - 3mm and thus having more overhang.
Nothings ever simple !!!
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Post by Owen Y on Mar 26, 2019 11:41:01 GMT 12
Graham makes a fair point. However, check your protractor first & measure the Null Point distances from spindle centre. If it's this one on Trade Me, for starters, the Null Points look odd as marked '60.04mm / 120.9mm' as below.... 
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Post by Owen Y on Mar 26, 2019 12:04:45 GMT 12
Regardless, you'll see from the typical phono weighted distortion graph below, if your Overhang is 2mm too long, then... 1) You will only be able to align at one Null Point, not both. 2) Either one, you will have increased distortion at the other, or both.  Linn tonearm cartridge mounting: I know that Linn advise always remove the tonearm before mounting a cartridge, because of potential stress / damage to the arm bearings. Firstly, you don't need to massively 'torque up' mounting screws on cartridges. IMO, even with the tonearm removed, on the bench say, bearings can be stressed if you're over-enthusiastic with the hex wrench - because the tonearm, either way, needs to be firmly held in order to do up the screws. At least if mounted on the LP12, you have the advantage of a 'soft' spring suspension holding the arm base. As said, the above is my opinion only, I have always tightened firmly but gently & mostly never removed my old LVII when doing so.
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Post by Citroen on Mar 26, 2019 12:56:39 GMT 12
Tracking force
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Post by sub on Mar 26, 2019 14:42:13 GMT 12
Graham makes a fair point. However, check your protractor first & measure the Null Point distances from spindle centre. If it's this one on Trade Me, for starters, the Null Points look odd as marked '60.04mm / 120.9mm' as below.... You may have been unable to read the numbers properly from the photo - the one I have is the elvon model as per photo, and null points are A=120.9 and B=66.04 - confirmed by measuring. So it is the Baerwald measurement, which it seems can result in a +2mm overhang. strangely the paper one I printed from the Vinyl Engine site, A=129 and B=71, but the cart lines up perfectly at each null spot on both protractors! Well, as far as I can tell by eye thanks to the sloping and tapered sides of the Ortofon 2M Black cart!
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Post by michaelw on Mar 26, 2019 14:56:54 GMT 12
a friend bought the grid block off tardme but avoided the alignment protractors as the null points are all mixed up ! the auction showed one like owen's pic with 120.9/60.04 nulls. i lent him my db systems protractor. we set up a lyra delos in my old well tempered. after a bit fiddling, it sounds amazing  
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Post by Owen Y on Mar 26, 2019 15:15:02 GMT 12
You may have been unable to read the numbers properly from the photo - the one I have is the elvon model as per photo, and null points are A=120.9 and B=66.04 - confirmed by measuring. So it is the Baerwald measurement, which it seems can result in a +2mm overhang. strangely the paper one I printed from the Vinyl Engine site, A=129 and B=71, but the cart lines up perfectly at each null spot on both protractors! Well, as far as I can tell by eye thanks to the sloping and tapered sides of the Ortofon 2M Black cart! I have uploaded a larger scale image above, from that Tr Me listing. As said, you should measure the protractor (with a good quality ruler). Often with me, it's helped to mark a centreline onto the top of the cartridge, with non-rectangular shaped cartridges. The Ittok headshell has holes that allow you to see the line on rear of the cartridge & the cartridge usually overhangs the front edge of the Ittok h'shell. In the case of the 2M Black, the fr face of the cartridge is square for alignment.
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Post by sub on Mar 26, 2019 15:34:51 GMT 12
Rr You may have been unable to read the numbers properly from the photo - the one I have is the elvon model as per photo, and null points are A=120.9 and B=66.04 - confirmed by measuring. So it is the Baerwald measurement, which it seems can result in a +2mm overhang. strangely the paper one I printed from the Vinyl Engine site, A=129 and B=71, but the cart lines up perfectly at each null spot on both protractors! Well, as far as I can tell by eye thanks to the sloping and tapered sides of the Ortofon 2M Black cart! I have uploaded a larger scale image above, from that Tr Me listing. As said, you should measure the protractor (with a good quality ruler). Often with me, it's helped to mark a centreline onto the top of the cartridge, with non-rectangular shaped cartridges. The Ittok headshell has holes that allow you to see the line on rear of the cartridge & the cartridge usually overhangs the front edge of the Ittok h'shell. In the case of the 2M Black, the fr face of the cartridge is square for alignment. Thanks for those tips. Re the elvon protractor, the one I have is clearly marked B=66.04, and I confirmed the 66mm by measuring with my ruler (.04 is probably about as wide as the line on the ruler. Can’t bring up the listing on TM I purchased from at the moment, but it seems the one you have the photo could be a mis-print! 
Edit: TM working properly again and yes the photos do show a protractor with the B null point measurement of 60.04mm. That appears to be putting knowledgeable people off, and if indeed the B null point really was that number, then those who don’t know better (like myself) would have bought a lemon. Fortunately the item correctly has B=66.04mm. I have asked the seller a question pointing that out to him.
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Post by Owen Y on Mar 26, 2019 18:17:40 GMT 12
Good - the important thing is the dimension of the actual item. Yes, I would get the O/hang back to 18mm. Just don't be Schwarzenegger with the hex wrench
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Post by michaelw on Mar 26, 2019 19:20:02 GMT 12
the linn school of setup... tighten those hex bolts until you can tighten no more 
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Post by michaelw on Mar 26, 2019 20:26:07 GMT 12
ps tm seller is still advertising a protractor with funky nulls
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Post by sub on Mar 26, 2019 21:11:44 GMT 12
the linn school of setup... tighten those hex bolts until you can tighten no more Perhaps that’s why the cart was aligned without too much effort on my part - I used the indentations left in the head shell slot as a mark of reference! But I do not use a hex key, just a screw driver. Re your ps, it was after 6pm when I posted on the sellers listing - they are a retailer so won’t see it until Wed 27th.
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Post by sub on Mar 27, 2019 10:12:05 GMT 12
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Post by cooksferry on Mar 27, 2019 11:12:19 GMT 12
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Post by Owen Y on Mar 27, 2019 13:04:36 GMT 12
That's good info & background, esp the historic stuff.
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Post by jon on Mar 28, 2019 7:50:52 GMT 12
We spend a lot of time (and money) setting up our cartridges to deal with only three of the six degrees of motion.
Pitch - Tilts forward and backward (so tonearm height and its effect on the VTA)
Yaw - Position of the cartridge (Left/Right positioning)
Roll - Side to side positioning (that is vertical positioning)
And that is fine
And yet, and yet...
We place our recorded medium onto a platter and then ignore the other three degrees of movement
Heave - Up/Down movement
Swaying - left/right lateral movement
Surging - moving forward/backward
All of that is down to the record sitting on a platter.
So the question is... given we spend massive amounts of time on establishing the correct orientation of the cartridge in the system, do we spend an equivalent amount of time on the record and its supporting substructure?
If you are anything like me then the answer is yes and no.
I build my own stuff, I have to pay attention to this, and I do. However I don't worry about the condition of the record and, yes, I clean/dust/record clamp/edge weight/whatever else is fashionable but the press does not really talk about the record material and whether it can be improved and so on. I suspect that's in the too-hard-basket.
ANyway, I digress
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Pundit
Post by belbo on Oct 13, 2019 4:10:21 GMT 12
SRA & VTA
One thing that always bothered me regarding VTA & SRA: generally I understand that the cartridge manufacturer has designed the cartridge in a way that when the arm is parallel to the record the VTA is 20 degrees. If that's the case then isn't SRA also automatically set by the manufacturer to 92 degrees? or why do we need to mess with it? Aren't we moving away from the optimum setting? Also when we try to modify the SRA fine-tuning it with the arm height don't we automatically mess the VTA as well?
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Pundit
Post by Gryffles on Oct 13, 2019 14:33:07 GMT 12
Adjust it by ear and what sounds best to you.Unless you can measure SRA then VTA is what's left. My understanding is that that when we measure SRA or VTA the same thing is achieved just by a different means ie VTA we use the arm as the measurement with SRA we use the stylus. belbo
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Post by Owen Y on Oct 13, 2019 19:21:02 GMT 12
Yes, VTA & SRA are set by the cartridge manufacturer, with cartridge top level. So, you should usually find that top of cartridge level works pretty well (with a fully run-in cartridge) - I fine-tune a little by ear - if necessary. Because there are some things that can cause variations, eg: - Record thickness variation (some tonearms can be sensitive to this, eg shorter tonearms, including some linear trackers of Dynavector arms. - VTF (Vert Tracking Force) will have an effect on the VTS/SRA - sometimes you need to play with VTF (eg when the cartridge is new, or when some cartridge suspensions can be sensitive to temperature).
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Post by colinf on Oct 13, 2019 19:43:09 GMT 12
Jon, if you look into the problems of vinyl and reproduction of a waveform with a stylus and turntable too deeply, you might end up with digital! But is digital perfect? The trends with different digital filters would suggest it isn’t either. At least 180gm vinyl was an attempt to better the heave component in your description. 78s were made of shellac, a brittle material. Some 78s were made with a metal base and vinyl on top. That would lessen the tendency to warp. Like you say, perhaps it’s time for the audio industry to discuss ultimate record materials? Lateral is up to the cutting lathe and stamper system to reduce the eccentricity of the tracks. Surging is wow and flutter, and manifests as FM distortion. The quality of cartridge suspension is the determinant there at audio frequencies, with wow and flutter largely determined by turntable and cutting lathe speed stability. A Decca-style cartridge might come closest to reproducing the exact movement of the cutting lathe stylus. Perhaps large format tape has the best analogue resolution. What stuff are you building?
AMR-iFi R&D
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Pundit
Post by belbo on Oct 14, 2019 4:15:05 GMT 12
Yes, VTA & SRA are set by the cartridge manufacturer, with cartridge top level. So, you should usually find that top of cartridge level works pretty well (with a fully run-in cartridge) - I fine-tune a little by ear - if necessary. Because there are some things that can cause variations, eg: - Record thickness variation (some tonearms can be sensitive to this, eg shorter tonearms, including some linear trackers of Dynavector arms. - VTF (Vert Tracking Force) will have an effect on the VTS/SRA - sometimes you need to play with VTF (eg when the cartridge is new, or when some cartridge suspensions can be sensitive to temperature). So VTA & VTF probably needs to be readjusted after 50 hours (so it's fully run-in)?
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