Pundit
Post by rocl on Jul 21, 2018 11:53:01 GMT 12
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Post by jon on Jul 21, 2018 15:52:35 GMT 12
Compliance is the word you are looking for. A properly setup arm/cartridge combination does not need these isolators as any resonant frequencies are properly dealt with or avoiided completely.
An arm manufacturer cannot predict what cartridges are going to be attached to their arm, they can only provide compliance figures and hope that people are sensible.
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Post by jon on Jul 21, 2018 16:01:04 GMT 12
I'm all for listenjng tests... why not try it and see?
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Pundit
Post by simonb on Jul 21, 2018 16:52:25 GMT 12
While I'm not that keen on the idea I don't condemn it either. Like everything in audio 'it's complicated'. It will alter the sound, this may or may not be an improvement depending on the arm / cartridge / system / personal preferences it is used with.
The reason tonearms matter (as much as cartridges and probably more than turntables  ) is due to how they deal with vibration. To me this is more significant than geometry, assuming a tonearm design has roughly conventional geometry. Remember a LP is a great wide-band vibration source and cartridges have in more innocent eras been called 'pick-ups' for good reason. They are constantly picking up and feeding a big mush of vibration (music) down the arm. These vibrations will excite resonances in the arm and typically bounce of the counterweigh (exciting its resonances) before heading back towards the cartridge (exciting more arm resonances) and mixing with the new lot of incoming vibrations. All delayed and time smeared (and in metal arm tubes, not much diminished). So the cartridge then receives this 'counter signal' which affects the electrical signal it is generating and passes on to the electronics. Hence my design ethos of using carbon fibre to make a large diameter tube that pushes it's resonances up (x4 or more) to the point where the resonances have some chance of being damped by the fibrous nature of the material.
So back to the cartridge isolator thing, where I do agree with it, is that it attempts to address vibrations. I don't really know about this device but some thoughts follow; At low frequencies it introduces a compliance, it could be argued that the cartridge will act like it is mounted on a low mass arm, not generally good. The isolator will decouple the cartridge at medium to high frequencies, although may not have nice behaviour in getting there. Personally I am wary of something that will mean the cartridge will have different operating modes with frequencies. It is hard to know whether it is good or bad if the cartridge can't 'sink' higher frequencies. I do like the transmission line analogy for tonearms that attempt to damp structural vibrations.
As noted above; It will alter the sound, this may or may not be an improvement depending on the arm / cartridge / system / personal preferences it is used with. (I might joke that 90% of removable headshells are cartridge isolators anyway....)
Simon Brown
Design Build Listen Ltd,
Makers of The Wand Analogue Products
Distributor of Hana Cartridges
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Post by Citroen on Jul 21, 2018 17:21:08 GMT 12
I used a Cartridgeman Isolator with my Cartridgeman Music Maker III, mainly on an Origin Live Silver Mk 11 arm www.thecartridgeman.com/isolator.htm It was a very good improvement, opened the sound up, more air, tighter bottom end. I did try it on an Analogue Instruments arm but didn't notice much change. What I couldn't get used to though was the fact that the cartridge was only attached by a sticky pad. Gave me the shivers, thinking that at any time it might become detached.
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Pundit
Post by rocl on Jul 21, 2018 17:36:14 GMT 12
thanks simonb , i really appreciate the comprehensive response. i am a simple soul and my initial response to the idea was - wow, i must do that. i mean isolating vibration is REALLY important and i do lots to achieve it with my tt, amp, phono, speakers, etc. i even went hunting for some carbon fibre. and then it got late and i had to sleep. when i woke i thought, hmmmm why do ppl pay thousands of dollars for carts and they then spend $10 on a bit of something that significantly improves the performance. why didn't all the guru's making these things put this cheap little bit on? and there are all these ingenious guys (i think they are all men) making incredible arms and they just leave this piece of bare, flat, steel. huh? what's with that? haven't they heard about the benefits of isolation? i do my best thinking when i'm asleep!
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Pundit
Post by simonb on Jul 21, 2018 18:35:31 GMT 12
$10? why not try it? Many arms have a lot of resonances, so it is likely to help in some areas. It does come down to what works for you, regardless of what anyone else says.
Simon Brown
Design Build Listen Ltd,
Makers of The Wand Analogue Products
Distributor of Hana Cartridges
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Pundit
Post by rocl on Jul 21, 2018 20:28:15 GMT 12
$10? why not try it? Many arms have a lot of resonances, so it is likely to help in some areas. It does come down to what works for you, regardless of what anyone else says. because i have one of your arms? and i am sure it doesn't have any resonances. actually i have been thinking of easing off the cart and putting something in there. just to see,
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Pundit
Post by simonb on Jul 22, 2018 11:57:58 GMT 12
Pretty impossible to make something as big as an arm not have any resonances. I like to think the ones in my arm are just less obvious... I think it likely to make a difference, you just have to decide if it better for what you like. of course it would be wise to change the arm height so you are comparing apples with apples.
Simon Brown
Design Build Listen Ltd,
Makers of The Wand Analogue Products
Distributor of Hana Cartridges
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Post by Owen Y on Jul 22, 2018 15:35:32 GMT 12
All structural/mechanical construction have an inherent resonant frequency/s. It's a case of whether those resonances are audible (ie within the audible range) or whether they affect the mechanical function of the device (eg. arm/cartridge resonant freq affecting LF performance or tracking records warps). As Simon mentions above, with the Cartridgeman 'isolator' above, if it does isolate the cartridge from the tonearm, then the cartridge may behave like it is mounted on no tonearm or a v low mass tonearm - which may be beneficial for HFs but I'd guess would not be so good for bass reproduction. Dave Whittaker (Aura TT) incidentally, being an inveterate DIYer, made his own version of this isolator. He gave me one to try but sorry Dave, I haven't yet!  (As soon as I find it, I'll post a pic - almost identical to the above.)
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) is due to how they deal with vibration. To me this is more significant than geometry, assuming a tonearm design has roughly conventional geometry. 
