Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2018 9:02:38 GMT 12
Sick of tiptoeing past the Linn I am planning to relocate on a shelf to the right of the LP's and above the CD's in the photo. This would mean a 3m distance from the phono amp. Question; in order to keep the path as short as possible should I also relocate the phono amp? Then its 3m to the pre amp from the phono amp. What difference would it make in the groups experience?  free website upload
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Post by michaelw on Feb 5, 2018 9:18:11 GMT 12
depends the components involved.
how about some gold ol' kiwi diy applied under the linn ?
try putting it on a piece of hardwood, mdf at a pinch, supported by your favourite isolation device (cones, squash balls, packet of chips etc.).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2018 10:47:27 GMT 12
going to a Jolida JD9 phono stage with mullard AX12's
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Post by Owen Y on Feb 5, 2018 10:57:39 GMT 12
A tricky one, as often can be the case with room layouts....the window, the RHS door(?) & the remainder of the room (unknown). Some random thoughts based on previous experience: - firstly, I have never tried a wall shelf myself. - However I had an LP12 for over 10yrs & as you will know, LP12s perform v well on top of rigid, framed supports. Even a light, coned sub-table will help under an LP12. - Definitely maintain short as possible distance from cartridge/TT to phono preamp (because of the small signal & possibility of hum/noise pickup). - Long ICs (preamp-power amps) or long spkr cables? I have always worked with the latter – but your LPs may not easily be relocated elsewhere if you relocate your TT-preamp-amps to the RHS wall. - I have relatively recently discovered the effectiveness of Mag-lev support feet under a TT to alleviate footfall bounce on a wood floor – however cannot say how mag-lev would affect the sound of an LP12. Tell us a bit more about the lspkrs & system generally.
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Post by Owen Y on Feb 5, 2018 11:05:48 GMT 12
PS. Wall shelves work best I expect in UK & countries where masonry (brick) walls are common. However, even a timber-framed NZ wall might be better than a bouncy floor.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2018 12:16:55 GMT 12
That is an outside wall in a 70's brick farmhouse. System is LP12 with dynavector 20 x2 LO, to Jolida jd9 with rolled mullard ax12's, to Ming Da tube pre Amp, to Ming Da MD 90 monoblocks with four KT90's a side, through mogamis bi wired to Cadence Arista hybrid electrostatic.
So from Owen's take the question asked is answered by keep the phone stage close.
LP's are damn heavy and need to be in a strong part of the room, so not keen on relocating.
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Post by Citroen on Feb 5, 2018 13:27:32 GMT 12
Definitely get the phono amp as close as possible.
Also, isn't it popular wisdom to have longer interconnects from pre to power, and shorter speaker cables vs longer speaker cables and shorter pre to power?
Or am I just imagining that as most people with monoblocks seem to have them next to the speakers and not next to the pre?
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Post by Owen Y on Feb 5, 2018 15:40:24 GMT 12
Ok, that's good - wall shelf is a solid option. Other options: - strengthen floor (if it's timber-framed on-ground). - relocate on floor elsewhere. Nice setup, lots of glowing Dark Lanterns  Should sound big & open I expect. Rare stat-hybrid lspkrs, did you source locally, or USA,UK or from India?
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Post by Owen Y on Feb 5, 2018 16:24:25 GMT 12
Also, isn't it popular wisdom to have longer interconnects from pre to power, and shorter speaker cables vs longer speaker cables and shorter pre to power? Or am I just imagining that as most people with monoblocks seem to have them next to the speakers and not next to the pre? Hmmm....haven't picked up that bit of wisdom (Although I recall being told once that Peter Thomson (Plinius) had advocated this, but don't quote me about Peter.) The only potential problem with lengthy line-level ICs, is a situation possibly with a tube high output impedance preamp combined with say very high capacitance & long ICs, then the low pass filter effect created has potential to drop to near the 'audible' region, ie HF rolloff.
Long speaker cables present less or no problem in this regard, because power amp output impedances are really low (even tube amps).
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Post by michaelw on Feb 5, 2018 16:56:52 GMT 12
short ic's/long speaker cables here too.
cheaper to buy as well ?
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Pundit
Post by neilsan on Feb 6, 2018 19:41:33 GMT 12
Same here Michael.
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Post by Owen Y on Feb 14, 2018 10:04:50 GMT 12
Citroen - just rethinking what I said about HF roll-off & long cables, I think I was not correct, I didn't mention the tube preamp high output impedance problem. Edited above in Red.However most well designed tube preamps these days wouldn't present this potential issue - ie they are designed with low output impedance. (Obvious exception being 'passive' volume pots - and preamps with vol pot on the output - when output impedances can be v high.)
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Post by michaelw on Feb 14, 2018 12:24:35 GMT 12
bottom line is keep both ic's and speaker cables to as short a length as practicable. 
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Post by Citroen on Feb 14, 2018 16:17:15 GMT 12
Makes sense MW. The majority who have power amps seem to place them next to the speaker and not near the pre-amp. Maybe its more to do with aesthetics and symmetry, or lack of space in a hifi rack?
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Post by Owen Y on Feb 14, 2018 18:30:04 GMT 12
Another thing to consider is that line source & preamp output signal level (millivolts) is only a fraction of the power amp-to-speaker level (volts), so it makes sense to minimise signal loss in the low level IC cables. Grounding - been pondering system Gnding lately & it's worth understanding that hifi components are usually chassis-grounded internally as close as possible to the input sockets. This is in order to minimise 'ground loop' area (through mains Earth) & to better isolate the upstream connected device - normal practice. So it's sensible again for the upstream IC to be as short as possible in order to minimise the 'Ground loop'. (Glad this cable length Q was raised, as I hadn't considered it in any detail previously )
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Post by michaelw on Feb 16, 2018 11:40:14 GMT 12
paul mcgowan introduces a new factor.
he prefers long balanced ic's and short speaker cables, saying it's easier to make a long, low loss balanced ic than a long low loss speaker cable
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Post by Owen Y on Feb 16, 2018 19:57:47 GMT 12
Yup, with their fully balanced amps, Balanced sounds best, he says. And as Balanced separates the Gnd cct from beginning to end, long cables work without noise pickup interfering with signals - as in pro audio cabling. Interesting hearing Bascom King talking about vacuum tubes & about Arnie Nudell's system: (Interview videos on Paul's youtube channel.) (Apologies to @mostlyvinyl for digressing your thread a bit )
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Pundit
Post by LinnBoy on Feb 18, 2018 9:21:34 GMT 12
I have no experience mounting Sondeks to wooden kiwi walls, but my experience working with LINN at a show with one mounted on a light target shelf (or was it Mana) on the wall in LINN’s Kabin at Earls Court was disastrous. Could visibly see top section moving with the hum of 25 000 people! Is it not possible to wall shelf it where it is? Bit awkward, but maybe it could stay where it is but detached from the floor?
I am a non-recovering audioholic, and Ivor is my higher power.
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Post by sub on Feb 18, 2018 12:41:51 GMT 12
I once mounted my LP12 on a shelf fixed to a standard timber cavity nz wall - total disaster! Hadn’t realised how much vibration from the speakers was transferred to the wall. If constraints re cable lengths get in the way of mounting the shelf to a solid masonry wall, then probably the way to go would be to insert bracing under the floor under the TT.
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