This post crosses two genres - cartridges and phono stages!

i have been using a Denon DL103R on my Yamaha YP-D9 TT, via a Dynavector P75/3 phono stage.

Elsewhere here I have discussed distortion/mistracking at crescendo peaks when playing a Soria edition copy of Verdi’s Requiem.   

I have  also discussed my recent purchase of a Plinius 8150, and my experience comparing the MC stage in that to the Dynavector (set in Enhancer mode), and had reached the decision I would sell the Dynavector as the Plinius was very similar but just a tad cleaner.

Today, have been experimenting.  Adjusted Dynavector for MM, and have played with two MM carts.

Flrstly, a Shure M75B.  Had last been used in May this year.   Wow, more dynamics than the Denon 103R, stronger bass.  Played Famous Blue Raincoat,  two sides of Manassas, and then the Requiem.  Hmm! Still distorting at peaks, clearly damage in the grooves.

Next up a Linn K18, not been used for several years, so a bit stiff and taking time to settle.  Replayed same records, again more dynamics than the Denon, but while vocals were great, darkened the tone of Jennifer Warne’s voice.  Still SOME distortion in the peaks of the Requiem, but very little and the whole of Side 1 was a very pleasant listen.

Both MM carts had more presence, and better dynamics, than the MC Denon, while the MC came across with more air and delicacy.  The Linn was also a better tracker.

Now, what do I do?  I need to sell something to recoup cost of buying and repairing the Plinius 8150.  Do I sell the Denon DL103R or the Dynavector P75/3?  The Plinius only has MC stage, if it was switchable MC/MM problem solved.  Do I stick with the Denon, or go with the better dynamics of one of the MM carts?  Oh dear, I am sure I will work it out!

If t'were me, keep the P75/3 for the versatility of MM/MC switch-ability down the track when for the day when you have a TT with 2 arms, (or 3), or 2 TT's  . Sell the Denon 103R for now, enjoy the M75B or Linn and later once funds recovered get a better MC (or MM).......

Never play Leapfrog with a Unicorn.

Interesting findings sub

So 103R via Plinius is better than via Dyn p75 but MM carts via P75 are better sounding again?

If that's the case, then I'd agree with nakmad. Always keep the better sounding combo!

However, in my systems and to my ears, the Denon 103r sounded more dynamic, open, clear via enhanced phono mode on Dyn p75 than any other setting on the Dyn P75 or the MC phono of my Plinius 8150.
Not familiar with the Shure but did have a k9, and surprised it bettered the 103R. But I'm a die hard fan of this cart, so a very biased opinion


Would be damn interesting for you to compare the MM of the 8150 vs the P75. It only takes a few swaps of resistors?/components to convert the 8150 to MM!

I remember corresponding with John Garrott back in the 80s & concurring with him that MMs can be excellent & that many MCs are "not all they are claimed to be".

MMs produce 10-20x more output voltage than MCs, are less demanding for additional amplification & thus tend to sound more powerful & dynamic for starters.
OTOH the MC usually has lower moving mass, so tends to track HF & low level information better.

I wouldn't give up on MCs - as nakmad says, a strategy could be to keep the MC stage (P75) for when you find a MC that suits your tastes (ie. at least matches the MMs in the areas that you care for).

You can have all the hifi detail & resolution in the world, but if it doesn't have dynamics & rhythm, it's not like real music

DarkLantern blog - darklanternforowen.wordpress.com

As I have both a Shure M75B and Denon 103R, I can see I am going to have to refresh my memory! I only have a P75/2 though 

My rationale was this ... the P75/3 would take a far better cartridge than either the 103R or M75B, and has the MM/MC flexibility, so that is the piece to keep for any future additions. The M75B is nice, a mid-range quality MM, but easily and cost effectively replaced, and so not worth a lot either. The 103R is nice and marketable.. and popular, so easiest to shift for a good price, and if you are not entirely happy?

 Like M'sieur Citroen, I do like my 103R.. but if I want dynamics, out trots the Decca...

Never play Leapfrog with a Unicorn.

So what made you decide to sell the P75 in the end?
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At the end of the day, practicalities come into it. As to quality of sound P75 v 8150 via phono, there was very little in it. The phono section on the 8150 was upgraded by having two new op amps installed, and that has probably changed the sound - cannot say whether better or not as I have never heard playback via the original op amps.  Gary described the new op amps as being superior and of newer design.

As I said in a post above, bass and mid range was pretty much on a par but the 8150 seemed a little cleaner in the treble when using the Denon cart.

The practicalities are that the 8150 only has two line inputs - cd and tuner, plust two tape loops. There is also a switchable processor loop which is of no use to me. So, CD player to one input, Freeview sattelite box to tuner, cassette deck to tape 1, and bluray player to input of tape 2.

That only leaves the phono input on the 8150. It is configured for MC, and according to the manual if you want to change to MM the amp has to go to a dealer to have some parts soldered in. High or low gain is user adjustable by moving two jumpers on the top board.

The manual says the amp came standard from factory with MM installed and the parts needed to change to MC were supplied. Conversely, it could be ordered from factory with MC installed, in which case the parts to reconfigure to MM were supplied. But those parts have long gone with previous owners. Not sure if the parts needed to change back to MM are still available ex Plinius, but too much of a hassle to go into that now.

I had several more listening sessions with the Shure, Linn and Denon carts. Both MM carts are indeed very dynamic in comparison to the Denon but the Denon is purer in tone and dynamics can be improved be winding the volume up!

My listening experience is to an extent coloured by my aural memory of the sound I experienced several years ago when using a Jarrah phono pre with an Audio Technics OC9 MC cart - the dynamics, sheer musicality and PRAT of that combo was amazing. I know some found the Jarrah flawed, even bloated (by which I understand some musical aspects were exaggerated) but to me the sound was perfect.

As mentioned in another post elsewhere, Pure Audio are developing a new phono pre which I will be auditioning, and if it recaptures the essence of the Jarrah, then practicalities be dammed and one of the line inputs on the 8150 will have its existing incumbent booted out!

sub - re. the dynamics of the 103R being a bit unimpressive....

From what I can see, the Plinius 8150 specs say that Input Sensitivity is '500uV on High gain MC' - ie. 0.5mV is required for the 8150 to output full power.
The 103R supplies only 0.25mVrms according to their specif.
So, this 103R will only allow the 8150 to reach 50% power.

With your loudspkrs (type?), are you having to wind up the 8150 quite high? (Roughly where on the vol control, eg 12 o'clock?)

DarkLantern blog - darklanternforowen.wordpress.com

Nov 25, 2017 9:02:27 GMT 12 Owen Y said:

sub - re. the dynamics of the 103R being a bit unimpressive....

From what I can see, the Plinius 8150 specs say that Input Sensitivity is '500uV on High gain MC' - ie. 0.5mV is required for the 8150 to output full power.
The 103R supplies only 0.25mVrms according to their specif.
So, this 103R will only allow the 8150 to reach 50% power.

With your loudspkrs (type?), are you having to wind up the 8150 quite high? (Roughly where on the vol control, eg 12 o'clock?)

Yes, those issues running through my head as well.

 Using KEF LS 50s

i do have to turn the volume up quite a bit more than when using the 103R via P75 into my replaced Plinius 2100i.  10.30-11 o’clock was fine, now have to go to at least 12 or even close to 1 o’clock. 

Will wait for finances to settle then I think maybe look at replacing the 103R with something more compatible with the 8150.

Nov 25, 2017 9:55:02 GMT 12 sub said:

i do have to turn the volume up quite a bit more than when using the 103R via P75 into my replaced Plinius 2100i.  10.30-11 o’clock was fine, now have to go to at least 12 or even close to 1 o’clock. 

Or use a 20dB Step Up Transformer into the MM input would also do the same trick, gain-wise & 470 ohm MC loading similar to the 8150 MC setting.

12-1 o'clock volume possibly still OK, depending on the vol pot & amp.

DarkLantern blog - darklanternforowen.wordpress.com

re - 103r dynamics.

i have to say my 103 based dla-100 had a bit more dynamic oomph than a 103r.
it also had a freakishly high output for a 103 - 0.38mv

and if memory serves, the stock 103 also has a bit more punch over the more refined sounding 103r.

i concur with the decision to sell the pv75.

Hi Citroen, just to satisfy myself I had an extended listening session this morning, using the 103R, alternating the 75/3 in enhancer mode and Plinius mc input. (I discovered I am getting too old to enjoy being on hands and knees swapping out cables!)

Through the 75/3, music very satisfying with volume control at just over 9o’clock. Played Beethoven’s Trio #4, Barenboim, Zukerman, Du Pre. Beautiful tone, dynamics good, perhaps not quite as good as with the MM Shure, but perfectly acceptable.

Then through the Plinius, had to set volume to nearly 11o’clock to match sound level. To be honest, except for one issue, I could not differentiate sound quality as being any less than through the 75/3. That one issue was piano tone, or rather one aspect of the piano. Through the Plinius the left hand playing sounded more real and you could hear the body of the piano contributing, so there were not just notes hanging in space but an instrument connected to them. Again, dynamics ok and matched what I was hearing through the 75/3.

So the Plinius 8150 ahead by a nose! Perhaps the new op amps in the phono section have upped the performance as compared to the original?

A good result then

I'd do the same comparison but my Plin is still in "idle" mode, and my P75 is only Mk2.

When I get around to fixing my Plin I'll try to remember to get the op amps upgraded at the same time then.