Post by sub on Oct 25, 2017 21:30:25 GMT 12
Are recording methods different, vis a vis recording pop-rock etc versus classical music?
I ask, as have just beeen listening to a 1964 issue titled “The Art of Bel Canto” a two Record set on London ffrr label, featuring New Symphony Orchestrs of London conducted by Bonynge, and vocalists Joan Sutherland, Marilyn Horne, & Richard Conrad.
To get the sound I wanted, I had to turn the volume up to just over 12 on the dial of my Plinius 2100i, whereas, listening to pop/rock music 10 or 10.30.Is more than satisfying level of sound. Futhermore, by having the volume up to the 12 o’clock level meant that any extraneous noise could also be heard, especially between tracks.
Despite those quibbles, the sound was wonderful. This is an Op Shop find I had in my to clean box for several weeks. Only issue with cleaning is that sides 1 & 2 final tracks go to within a few mm of the label - clearly they have take great pains to get as much music as possible on each side, which gave a problem with cleankng in the US cleaner, as I had not noticed and had not filled the tank to the level that would cover the final track. But the biggest issue was that the vacuum slot of my Nitty Gritty did not reach the final approx 10mm or so of the final tracks.
I noticed a similar issue recently,listening to Berlioz’s Te Deum, Colin Davis and LSO, on a French pressing on Phillips label. I had to crank the volume up to the extent that extraneous noise was an issue. Made me ponder that maybe full range speakers are necessary to listen to classical music with fidelity. (My Spkrs are KEF LS 50s).
That is the main fault with using the Nitty Gritty for vacuuming dry - it does not accomodate the lead in track nor the run out track, so they are often left noisy despite careful cleaning.
|
Post by Owen Y on Oct 26, 2017 8:26:09 GMT 12
Hi sub - my experience is similar. I typically find myself listening to classical at one or two clicks louder. IMHO there are a few things at play here.... - Classical music usually has more dynamic range (ie from ppp to fff) than rock/pop/jazz & more freq bandwidth. Home loudspeakers often have difficulty reproducing esp adequate classical LF power. - Related to the above, we know that the ears are much less sensitive to lower frequencies at lower SPLs (Fletcher Munson curves) - so we typically have to wind up the volume in order to hear the bass end at 'equal loudness' - ie perceived flat response. - Many classical recordings also have restricted bass extension and/or power - because it was/is difficult to record and/or cut the huge bandwidth & dynamic range of classical music without either (i) limiting the bass and/or (ii) dropping the overall recorded level. Do you usually listen to vinyl or digital?
|
Post by sub on Oct 26, 2017 9:02:14 GMT 12
Hi, Owen, I had been thinking along the lines that classical music is, generally, of wider bandwidth than pop/rock/Jazz etc, and that is possibly an issue that recording engineers have to overcome.
Currently my listening seems to be mostly off vinyl. Although I do have a large collection of classical music on CD I haven’t listened to any on that medium for a couple of years. Should have a listen to do a comparison.
Having to turn the volume up is not an issue for me, rather the fact that by doing so extraneous noise on the record is also amplified and becomes noticeable, especially in quiet passages. I suspect that is why classical buffs, those who only listen to classical music, have generally abandoned vinyl for CD? My US cleaning machine does get rid of most of the noise, but not all.
|
Post by michaelw on Oct 26, 2017 10:07:11 GMT 12
your cartridge and preamplification will play a large part in perceived record noise.
i agree with my esteemed colleague above except for the comment on bass.
if anything older classical recordings (eg rca living stereo, mercury living presence, lyrita, emi et al ) have sound quality (including bass) that is still unsurpassed 50 years on.
noise or lack of may have played a part in the wholesale shift to cd for classical listeners but also the convenience features;
- ease of use
- longer listening times of up to 74 minutes (thanks, beethoven, mr sony or von karajan - take your pick),
- easy track access
|
Post by Owen Y on Oct 27, 2017 13:32:27 GMT 12
My pal used to enjoy listening to entire opera CDs without leaving his seat to flip the record/s. But reading the cover notes on a CD was never as attractive as with vinyl.
|
Post by michaelw on Oct 27, 2017 15:37:20 GMT 12
i had a friend who used a 5 disc changer.
every visit and the same 5 cds would be playing.
|
Pundit
Post by SL1210 on Oct 29, 2017 22:17:17 GMT 12
By and large pop music is deliberately recorded at the maximum volume. Artists and /or producers know that louder music tends to sound better - at least at first impression. This is often called the 'Loudness Wars'. As an aside the range from pp to ff is then dynamically compressed to ensure there is no clipping. Classical musical engineers are less prone to this. A larger dynamic range is required and in order to do that there should be no compression - so they will record at a level whereby the loudest sounds will not be clipped.
|
Post by jon on Oct 30, 2017 8:07:28 GMT 12
By and large pop music is deliberately recorded at the maximum volume. Artists and /or producers know that louder music tends to sound better - at least at first impression. This is often called the 'Loudness Wars'. As an aside the range from pp to ff is then dynamically compressed to ensure there is no clipping. Classical musical engineers are less prone to this. A larger dynamic range is required and in order to do that there should be no compression - so they will record at a level whereby the loudest sounds will not be clipped. That has been true since the dawn of time! Sound engineers have long complained of Producers insisting on 'Max Volume' even in the vinyl era. However I'd agree most modern music, and by that I mean Rock/Pop/Jazz are nowhere near as dynamic. Ravel's Bolero and Dvorak's 9th Symphony are good examples of dynamic range which will test many a system.
|
Post by Owen Y on Oct 30, 2017 11:22:18 GMT 12
Of course, also many examples of compression & 'gain-riding' in Classical engineering too - ie. sacrificing a bit of bass and/or crescendoes.
|
Post by michaelw on Oct 31, 2017 14:46:45 GMT 12
the funny thing is the great recordings of the 50s/60s weren't truly appreciated until better playback gear became available in the 80s.  
|
Pundit
Post by SL1210 on Oct 31, 2017 20:54:00 GMT 12
the funny thing is the great recordings of the 50s/60s weren't truly appreciated until better playback gear became available in the 80s.
|
Pundit
Post by SL1210 on Oct 31, 2017 20:56:13 GMT 12
I recall a YouTube clip where a Greek audiophile said that he loved his 60's orchestral recordings. He said the 60's were a time of great optimism and that energy found its way into the orchestras of the day.
|
Post by sub on Oct 31, 2017 21:28:09 GMT 12
the funny thing is the great recordings of the 50s/60s weren't truly appreciated until better playback gear became available in the 80s. I noticed The Royal Ballet album pictured in your post, is from the RCA Victor “Soria Series”, which was a luxuriously repackaged series issued in early 60s. See my most recent Opp Shop Score post - picked up two near mint examples from that series today for the grand price of $6! Verdi’s Requiem and Bizets Carmen. The booklets with each set are mint and gorgeous.
|
Post by michaelw on Oct 31, 2017 22:16:02 GMT 12
yes, the originals were beautifully packaged.
mine is from the first run of classic records re-issues.
they kept the book but used a regular gatefold cover instead of a cloth covered box.
the later 45rpm one-side re-issues used a facsimile of the original box.
|
Post by Owen Y on Nov 1, 2017 8:01:16 GMT 12
Love ballet music - esp Delibes' Coppelia. The Royal Ballet in the 60s were of course the illustrious years of Fonteyn + Nureyev 
|
Post by michaelw on Nov 1, 2017 9:47:13 GMT 12
ditto !
one of my favourites, offenbach's tale of hoffmann, especially the powell and pressburger filmed version
|
Post by Citroen on Nov 1, 2017 16:29:46 GMT 12
Haven't really explored ballet music much, although I do admire the athleticism of the dance.
|
Post by jon on Nov 3, 2017 10:39:18 GMT 12
Loved Ballet music...
I got put off viewing it live when the Corp de Ballet launched into the air and landed with an ear-splitting thud!
|
Post by Owen Y on Nov 3, 2017 15:28:14 GMT 12
Conversely I love sitting close for ballets, to hear & sense the effort, the control, athleticism, grace of the dancers. (Not so good for observing the overall shape of the corps de ballet  ) Of course, Nureyev would never thud onto the stage, he flew, floated 
|
)