Nice product, heavy too! So much so they recommend using it without heat for rare and valuable discs, though that might take months. I can see this working!

I ordered the Groovy Pouch as well and it all comes with a digital thermometer.  (This may come in handy for dog-checking.)

My first candidate will be an older MFSL copy of Abbey Road with a pronounced, but not serious, edge warp. It's a thin record so I will proceed gingerly.

I don't have zillions of warped records but some I love very much are affected.

I'll report back.

DD

Singer/songwriter at: www.dominicblaazer.net
180g album, "The Lights of Te Atatu" released 2018

I've been discussing the topic of flattening vinyl with a coworker recently. I'm interested in how it goes for you.

Apparently 2 hours in the oven at 50 degrees C sandwiched between glass also works well.

www.jeremyyoungdesign.com

Yes, that's a time-honoured hack, for sure.

I avoided that 'recipe' as I never trusted our previous oven's thermostat to be even remotely close. Now we have a better oven but I don't have two 14"x14" sheets of glass lying around.
The glass would also have to be pretty thick to match the weight of the Vinyl Flat. You'd also have to fashion something similar to the felt mats that cosset/insulate the record. Not hard but yeah.

When all's said, I'd prefer to pay the inventor for his IP and investment in producing the Vinyl Flat. It isn't that expensive. I've seen people ahead of me in the queue at record shops spend more.

Although I could probably make a similar thing I wouldn't be able to make a nice heated Groovy Pouch and I'd still need to buy an thermometer. A lot of faff!

Singer/songwriter at: www.dominicblaazer.net
180g album, "The Lights of Te Atatu" released 2018

jerm your Dad has a Vinyl flat, and a spare groovy pouch that I had. They are both the older version that has a less even distribution of heat than the newer ones, and no thermometer.

We had been trying out many different combinations of time and temperature, and their effectiveness with different warp types/degree, vinyl thicknesses etc. I think Owen might have made some notes, but I was much more haphazard in my scientific endeavours!

Anyway, I concluded that there was little to no reliable correlation in effectiveness to time heated. Maybe vinyl formulation had something to do with that. Some seemingly minor warps took much longer to fix than others, similar warps but with thicker vinyl could need shorter times.

Edge warps much harder to fix than dish warps, even with the additional donuted pads. I've tried clamping the edge as well with bulldog clips with little effect.

So, always start off at the low end and then work up in time. I've only "ruined" two records (grooves flattened beyond playing safely), that were basically unplayable anyway. These had been heated a number of times, for extended periods.
Otherwise, I've found it quite safe to use.

Oct 6, 2021 14:06:07 GMT 12 Citroen said:

jerm your Dad has a Vinyl flat, and a spare groovy pouch that I had. They are both the older version that has a less even distribution of heat than the newer ones, and no thermometer.

We had been trying out many different combinations of time and temperature, and their effectiveness with different warp types/degree, vinyl thicknesses etc. I think Owen might have made some notes, but I was much more haphazard in my scientific endeavours!

Anyway, I concluded that there was little to no reliable correlation in effectiveness to time heated. Maybe vinyl formulation had something to do with that. Some seemingly minor warps took much longer to fix than others, similar warps but with thicker vinyl could need shorter times.

Edge warps much harder to fix than dish warps, even with the additional donuted pads. I've tried clamping the edge as well with bulldog clips with little effect.

So, always start off at the low end and then work up in time. I've only "ruined" two records (grooves flattened beyond playing safely), that were basically unplayable anyway. These had been heated a number of times, for extended periods.
Otherwise, I've found it quite safe to use.

Thanks, yeah I've seen it at his place I think, I was interested in the glass technique because it was more accessible to my friends/workmates.

The low (temp) and slow (time) approach makes sense to me from a safety perspective, and by safety I mean not ruining records!

My thinking is that you want to get hot enough to be above the glass transition temp of the material but only just, and not hot enough to melt the material or you'll be in trouble.

I'm assuming 50C is around that temperature but you must give it time for the temperature gradient to equalise throughout the glass and the record.

The 2 hour guideline is likely longer than required for a lot of records but it probably has allowance for variables like glass and record thickness etc.

Obviously the other option is to use a higher temp  in the oven or maybe the sun for a short time period but you run the risk of overheating and it becomes a fine line between success and failure. 

www.jeremyyoungdesign.com

Yes, low temp/long time aka under a stack of books is safest vs high temp/short time.

Recommended oven temp is 50 degrees C but not all ovens are accurate in reaching that temp. I've never had pieces of glass small enough to fit in my oven.

Oct 6, 2021 15:18:19 GMT 12 Citroen said:

Yes, low temp/long time aka under a stack of books is safest vs high temp/short time.

Recommended oven temp is 50 degrees C but not all ovens are accurate in reaching that temp. I've never had pieces of glass small enough to fit in my oven.

Does a stack of books actually work?

I would have thought you need at least some temp elevation above ambient to get you close to the glass transition and actually allow the polymer chains to move around.

I guess if you leave it long enough the effect you are seeing could be "creep"?

That's about the extent of my materials science knowledge... 

www.jeremyyoungdesign.com

Physical weight must account for something. But yes, I reckon some plasticity is required via a temp increase.

Years ago I got a slight result with weights on an album but had to wait for a few months. Pavers on top of a Miles Davis album. Can't recall if it was summer or not.

No, a stack of books does not work,

Back in the day I tried to flatten a record (Telarc 1812!) by placing it between two sheets of glass with a stack of heavy books on top.

Result - no improvement, the record went back to the seller - Mr J Button/Wellington Records and Audio

You need pressure + heat

A friend had an electronic version of the heated glass method which works quite well with the average warp.

Curiously I have had records, stored vertically, tightly packed that have un-warped themselves.

Pressure does work. Your last sentence confirms that!

But not books

I would say you only need enough pressure to get the record into a flat state, any more than that is a waste of time. Then the application of heat is what allows the polymer chains to move and then stay in the flattened state once the pressure is removed.

Whether you use books, glass or whatever else to create that pressure is irrelevant.

www.jeremyyoungdesign.com

I have a number of pieces of flat black slate. Put the record between two and leave it in the sun, maybe with a brollie as the heat regulator. Perfect! Mind you I have never tried it. Put it down to lock-down boredom. My mate at Vintech and I (note grammar) have simultaneously and independently bought Topping D90SE DACs from Rapello so it is not all bad.

In the Vinyl Flat instructions, it is noted that for especially delicate records, you can use no heat and just leave the disc nipped up between the metal plates. However, there's a caveat that this might take months but it's the safest method.

Singer/songwriter at: www.dominicblaazer.net
180g album, "The Lights of Te Atatu" released 2018

Regardless of the methodology make sure your records are 110% clean before heat + pressure

So how did you go Dom?

I've been given two records by a friend who ordered one which arrived badly warped and then the replacement also arrived warped.

I am going to have a go at flattening them, trying to figure out whether to use the glass method or the vinyl flat.

I haven't had a chance to locate the heating pouch that Dad apparently had, but I've found the glass and also the vinyl flat.

I'm thinking the oven will give a more even heat application anyway. I will use a thermocouple on my multimeter to monitor the temp and make sure it stays around 50C.

www.jeremyyoungdesign.com

Most domestic ovens aren't that great at low temp, 50 degrees, consistency.

More modern ovens might be but I've no experience of them.

The Vinyl Flat should be much more consistent, if you can find it.

I gave it a go last night and so far have 2 of 2 perfect records!

I wrote up the explanation for a post i did on reddit. Some photos below also this link has some videos of it spinning before and after.

imgur.com/a/TjkHnLi

My theory is that you want to heat to just above the temperature which the material softens but does not become molten then allow it to cool whilst holding it flat. This temperature is known as the glass transition temperature (Tg), it is tricky to know what the actual Tg is because they aren’t made from pure PVC, I think it is some kind of compound. I have used 55C (131F) as I have seen it mentioned elsewhere as a “safe” temperature for this process.

I used 6 mm float glass, something with a bit of thickness/weight is required. The glass and records must be very clean, wipe glass down with glass cleaner, brush all the dust off etc. Ideally use an ultrasonic cleaner prior to flattening.

You MUST monitor the temperature inside the oven using a probe, do not rely on your oven dial. Get a digital multimeter with a thermocouple probe, they can be had extremely cheaply on AliExpress (literally a few dollars). You may need to monitor it and adjust the temperature knob, open door etc to keep it averaging 50-55C.

Put the glass/record sandwich on the bottom shelf of the oven for 60 mins. The temperature is fairly low but you want to give it time to heat completely through.

Remove from the oven and allow it to cool completely in a flattened state (still sandwiched between glass), ideally on a wire rack so there is good air flow and even cooling. It should be cool to the touch in about an hour or so.

The weight of the glass was enough to flatten the warp but you could experiment with adding weight but I don't think it is necessary. Be careful, you only want just enough weight to flatten the warp, excessive weight may damage/deform the grooves in the record.

I’ve heard some horror stories about people overcooking and destroying records but I think if you carefully monitor the temperature it’s fairly low risk. Don’t let it sit above 55C for any long period.

www.jeremyyoungdesign.com

Jeez, I don't know why you didn't just do the same but put it in the vinyl flat.

Even pressure, felt like material to protect the vinyl etc

Nov 20, 2021 18:01:25 GMT 12 Citroen said:

Jeez, I don't know why you didn't just do the same but put it in the vinyl flat.

Even pressure, felt like material to protect the vinyl etc

Mainly because the Vinyl Flat isn't at my house right now.

I also wanted to try this technique as I have a few friends who were interested in giving it a go so I thought I would try and work it out for them.

I will probably use the Vinyl Flat in the future.

How long does the process take with the VF? I have a feeling the glass method might be quicker, cooling that big steel/iron thing must take a while?

I got these done in less than 2 hrs each, an hour in the oven and less than an hour cooling.

www.jeremyyoungdesign.com

At least two hours heating, double that to cool.

But its not like you are doing anything, just waiting. The slower the safer the process.

With the oven technique seems like you need to actively constantly monitor the temp, so actually takes up more time!

With mine it takes about 10 minutes to adjust at the beginning then you can pretty much leave it for the hour.

www.jeremyyoungdesign.com

Why not put a pavlova in the oven at the same time to help bring down the sea levels.