Post by Graham on Apr 29, 2017 10:50:59 GMT 12
Question for the gurus. I am watching on Trade Me a very nice Thorens TD166 that comes with an Excel Pro 81 MC cartridge amongst some extra bits and pieces. I have never heard of this cartridge and the internet seems to have very little info either. Do any of you guys know anything about this cartridge ?? Cheers Graham
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Post by Owen Y on Apr 29, 2017 19:33:58 GMT 12
Hi Graham - I believe that the Excel Pro 81 is a top shelf low output MC. I saw somewhere that this cartr has a Shibata stylus. Excel Corp (Japan) have been around since at least the 80s. Excel are making the current range of Hana MC cartridges, I believe.
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Post by michaelw on Apr 30, 2017 12:34:47 GMT 12
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Post by Graham on Apr 30, 2017 23:19:06 GMT 12
Thanks guys, that's about all the info I could find as well. It gets a mention on some German forums but no detail. It seems to have only been available in Japan and parts of Europe. Could be interesting if I can score it with the TD166. Fingers crossed the bidding doesn't go nuts.
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Post by guitardude on May 1, 2017 10:06:17 GMT 12
Hi Graham,
Yes I saw that one as well. I'm old enough to have heard of most things, but I don't recall that cart at all. I also remember reading that excel corp was an OEM and that the Hana range was the first one they had released under their own name ? I've a Hana EH which i'm enjoying on my Kenwood KD600/ Sumiko MMT combo at present. Good luck on the deck, i'm sure you need another table ?
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Post by sub on May 4, 2017 9:55:29 GMT 12
I see Circuscircus aka Graham won this TT! Do tell what it is like.
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Post by Graham on May 4, 2017 15:26:20 GMT 12
I see Circuscircus aka Graham won this TT! Do tell what it is like. Curses, my cover is blown !!!!!
I'm collecting the TT and cartridge tomorrow so you'll just have to be patient. I'm also very interested to hear how this obscure Shibata MC cartridge sounds. The seller claims he bought it in Germany for 700 Euros and has not used it much It is quite low compliance at 8cu but will match up well with the Sumiko MMT which has an effective weight of 20 grams.
Cheers Graham
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Post by guitardude on May 4, 2017 15:32:33 GMT 12
I've been enjoying the Hana EH on my MMT for the past couple of months....
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Post by Graham on May 7, 2017 21:02:20 GMT 12
Well I have now installed the Excel cartridge on the Oracle/MMT and must say I'm quite impressed by the sound. Nice clear highs and tight bass. Good wide soundstage with clear identification of individual instruments. Installation couldn't have been easier as the cartridge body is attached to a square mounting plate that lines up perfectly with the MMT headshell. I then tweaked it a little to arrive at my usual Baerwald alignment. From the photo you will see I have installed a 2mm alloy spacer, this was due to not being able to lower the arm mounting enough for the quite low profile cartridge. Fortunately it came with enough paper data to set tracking weight, and preamp impedance etc by duplicating the test specs. The publicity blurb refers to it having a Shibata stylus while the tech info refers to it as line contact nude diamond with hollow sapphire cantilever ! The only thing I am not entirely happy with is the low output of 0.2mV which results in having to crank the volume knob to 1/2 to 3/4 for the sound levels I'm used to. It is complete with a beautiful acrylic display box and the cardboard box clearly displays 700 Euros. Quite a score.!!!!
upload photo websites
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Post by Owen Y on May 7, 2017 22:43:39 GMT 12
That's nice. Shibata is pretty much a 'line contact' profile, Graham. Or 'extended contact'. Impedance 3 ohms, super minimal coil winding => low output and note the rising top end, typical MC - consider trying loading even well below 100 ohms (if you have that facility), damp the top end a bit.
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Post by guitardude on May 8, 2017 10:20:27 GMT 12
And the table itself was a bust Graham ?
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Post by Graham on May 8, 2017 13:27:22 GMT 12
Ah yes the turntable, which seems to have been forgotten with all this cartridge talk !!! It is a very nice original TD166 which will be subjected to my usual refurbishment process. It has a silver coloured plinth that I don't care for. Turntables are supposed to be black or wood grained ! Fortunately I still have contacts in the car painting world who can deal with this. It will wind up being almost identical to the one recently bought by Robert. More than likely same price to. Cheers Graham
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Post by Owen Y on May 8, 2017 15:47:37 GMT 12
I had a TD145 MkII back in the early days - silver, looked great, more 'contemporary' style than wood. Like this one....
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Post by Graham on May 8, 2017 16:10:44 GMT 12
OK, but yours had a nice contrasting black top plate. Mine is silver with a silver top plate. Too much IMO. Maybe I should paint it red, Mr Heathen would approve. Cheers Graham
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 18:20:48 GMT 12
OK, but yours had a nice contrasting black top plate. Mine is silver with a silver top plate. Too much IMO. Maybe I should paint it red, Mr Heathen would approve. Cheers Graham Now you've done it... I'm envisioning a cherry red plinth, black top plate with silver or white arm board, @rocls Origin Live and just like that sir, you have both a visually and sonically appreciable table... I'm a genius. Say no more.
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Post by Owen Y on May 8, 2017 19:43:51 GMT 12
Like this?.... Hmmm... I see. In a modernist environment, just the ticket
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Post by Graham on May 8, 2017 21:53:06 GMT 12
Yup, just like that.
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Post by Graham on May 9, 2017 21:49:34 GMT 12
Bugger !!!! I've just discovered that the Excel Pro 81 doesn't like my valve amp. Well I'm presuming that is the problem. When the tonearm of the Oracle is raised and moved across a record a noticeable hum can be heard that increases as it approaches the centre. I naturally thought it must be picking up interference from the motor so I turned the motor off, even unplugged the 24 V DC power cable, but the noise persists. It's not loud and can't be heard from the normal seating position but now it is bugging me. The only explanation I can come up with is the sensitive cartridge must be picking up this 50 Hz hum from the valves or the transformers. The amp sits just below the turntable. I have never heard this hum from any of my other cartridges including Denon DL110, Ortofon 2M Blue and Dynavector 10x5. All have been dead quiet. This my first experience with a low output MC and is a bit of a disappointment as it does sound very nice. I don't want to move the turntable away from the amp so I guess it is just not compatible with my system. Graham
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Post by michaelw on May 9, 2017 22:20:18 GMT 12
hi G,
what phono stage are you using ?
direct input or sut ?
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Post by Graham on May 9, 2017 23:00:50 GMT 12
Pro-Ject Phonobox SE II. MC mode has jumpers for 17,18,20,22,69,100,and 220ohm impedance. I have tried all of them! The common capacitance on the MC setting is 120pF. I even played around with increasing this to 220 and 340pF. At this stage I've switched back to my Ortofon 2M Blue and am enjoying the totally silent background. Any suggestions ?
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Post by Owen Y on May 10, 2017 10:16:11 GMT 12
Yes it does sound like the cartridge or phono-cabling is picking up EM fields, in the vicinity of the centre/rear of the TT. Suspicion falls on (i) TT mtr at rear (ii) amp PTXs under. However, the Delphi has a DC mtr (except for v early Delphis which had AC mtrs I believe) - so should be no EM radiation from that. The amp PTX is the one on the middle - as a test, perhaps slide the amp out onto a temporary support down, away from the cartridge/tonearm. PS. The tonearm cabling should have a separate Gnd wire that is Gnded either to the Phonobox Gnd post or directly to an amp Gnd point - is the MMT cabling standard/original?
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Post by Graham on May 10, 2017 12:09:12 GMT 12
Hi Owen.
Not the turntable motor - mine is DC and I have even unplugged the power.
Not the tonearm - MMT has ground wire that shows continuity from arm body to end of wire. I have tried connecting this to the preamp, main amp, and both. Amp is grounded to mains.
It's got to be the damn amp PTX.
I'm presuming this is due to the low output ( 0.2mv ) of the MC cartridge being more vulnerable to EM.
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Post by michaelw on May 10, 2017 12:38:57 GMT 12
g;
have you tried reducing the gain on the phono preamp ?
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Post by Graham on May 10, 2017 12:45:15 GMT 12
Not possible to reduce gain on the ProJect preamp.
Besides at 60db for MC it is borderline now. I have to have the volume at 1/2 to 3/4.
Cheers
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Post by Owen Y on May 10, 2017 15:31:04 GMT 12
Hi Graham - yes the 60dB Phono Box SE is more suited to medium output MCs - With 0.2mV in, you get only 0.2V out. I can't recall the amp, but most integrated/line-pre amps are designed for at least 300mV 'line level' sensitivity for full power output - & most digital sources these days would be outputting 2x to 8x that rms voltage. What are the amp specs? - power, input sensitivity... If your spkrs are sensitive (90dB/W?), then you will likely need only 5wpw average for loud listening - but you must have 30-50wpc for dynamic power reserves. PS. MCs are not sensitive to capacitance like MMs are.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2017 15:31:40 GMT 12
Not possible to reduce gain on the ProJect preamp. Besides at 60db for MC it is borderline now. I have to have the volume at 1/2 to 3/4. Cheers Ah well Graham, better send it on down my way... No use to you it seems.
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Post by guitardude on May 10, 2017 15:41:19 GMT 12
Bugger all use to you as a LOMC too buddy. Just send it to me, I've a couple of amplifier options to handle it !
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Post by Graham on May 10, 2017 21:39:11 GMT 12
Hi Graham - yes the 60dB Phono Box SE is more suited to medium output MCs - With 0.2mV in, you get only 0.2V out. I can't recall the amp, but most integrated/line-pre amps are designed for at least 300mV 'line level' sensitivity for full power output - & most digital sources these days would be outputting 2x to 8x that rms voltage. What are the amp specs? - power, input sensitivity... If your spkrs are sensitive (90dB/W?), then you will likely need only 5wpw average for loud listening - but you must have 30-50wpc for dynamic power reserves. PS. MCs are not sensitive to capacitance like MMs are. The output voltage of the ProJect is stated as 300mV at 1kHz for MM and 0.3mV for MC. The Yarland is rated at 40W using KT88 valves in push pull configuration, with 100K at1KHz input impedance, and the monitor Audio Silver RX6 speakers are 90db sensitivity. Using MM cartridges, or the LOMC Denon it has plenty of power to drive the speaker at under 1/2 volume.
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Post by Owen Y on May 11, 2017 8:57:28 GMT 12
Hi Graham: Phono Box SE II - is spec'ed for 300mV output with 0.3mV MC input (ie. 60dB/1000x gain). So with the Excel's 0.2mV input, it will output only 200mV (0.2V). Compare that with: Your Denon DL110's 1.6mV high output through the MC 60dB (1000x) stage, will output 1.6V. The 2M Blue's 5,5mV through the 40dB MM will produce 0.550V. So, compared with what you have previously been using, the Excel + Phono Box SE source will produce only 1/8 to 1/27 as much signal voltage. Judging by your volume level, it looks like the Yarland is designed for modern digital source levels, ie 0.5V-1V or more - and the Excel has less than 50% of that. Half volume is useable, but 3/4 volume is usually a bit higher than advisable. If you appreciate the sound of the Excel, it is a low-output MC & you need a high gain phono-stage - ie. 70dB (or at least 66dB).
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Post by Owen Y on May 11, 2017 9:11:30 GMT 12
Just for comparison, I am currently using a 0.23mV MC cartridge & my phono gain is 66-72dB.
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