Post by Owen Y on Apr 13, 2017 13:49:32 GMT 12
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Post by Citroen on Apr 13, 2017 15:48:48 GMT 12
Gotta love those Audeze phones!
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Post by 40hz on Apr 13, 2017 18:15:31 GMT 12
Quite the odd list. The SR-009 and HD800 are shoe-ins, but (for eg) the HiFiMan phones took something of a pounding even on head-fi due to the regular quality and reliability issues, and the tendency of the manufacturer to treat purchasers of $1,000 headphones as beta testers...
I do like my Audeze phones, but they are so damn heavy I haven't used them in months. Similarly, I will probably hold onto my Grados for ever, but there's a manufacturer that's stuck in a rut.
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Post by Owen Y on Apr 15, 2017 12:31:11 GMT 12
I'm waiting for cooksferry to be reborn & trade them all for the Focals
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Post by Citroen on Apr 15, 2017 17:40:13 GMT 12
Quite the odd list. The SR-009 and HD800 are shoe-ins, but (for eg) the HiFiMan phones took something of a pounding even on head-fi due to the regular quality and reliability issues, and the tendency of the manufacturer to treat purchasers of $1,000 headphones as beta testers... I do like my Audeze phones, but they are so damn heavy I haven't used them in months. Similarly, I will probably hold onto my Grados for ever, but there's a manufacturer that's stuck in a rut. Heavy as, but strangely quite comfortable. I'm getting used to the weight, even though I have no neck muscles!
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Post by cooksferry on Apr 16, 2017 11:21:03 GMT 12
Interesting if slightly predictable list but they do get some things right. I'm a huge fan of the Oppo phones, have both the PM-1 and PM-3. The PM-1 will be the headphone that goes to the grave with me, supremely comfortable,incredibly well made and presented with a lot of care and attention going into items like easily swapable earpads and cables, which should ensure they last a lifetime.I know they've had their opponents on Headfi and the like, usually by someone who's had a 5 minute listen, but I find them really nice right across the spectrum , they just envelope me in the music.
The PM-3 shares many of the design characteristics of its big brother but I dont find them as quite comfortable or to match the PM-1 in sq which is understandable. Still a very nice headphone and highly recommended as a good entry level all rounder for home or mobile use.
HiFi Man- have to admit to not trying any of their headphones except the RE-600 IEM. That little beauty was a sonic revelation for sound quality, fit and comfort, lacking just a little in the lower bass dept but they're a total disaster for build quality. I purchased my set from HiFi Man direct before I discovered the threads on Headfi documenting the ongoing problems with broken cables. I babied my pair for 6 months before loosing sound in one side. Eventually traced the fault to the plug end and managed to fit an aftermarket mini plug which gave me another 3 months before everything died. I expect more that a years use from my headphones and that episode was enough to put me off trying any more HiFi Man product.
Audeze. I still have my non fazor LCD-3 but must admit they have fallen out of favour in comparison to the Oppo PM-1. I do find their weight a bit trying and they have a tendency to move about on my head. I find my pair at least a little darker that the Oppo but maybe they would be better with a different amp that the Oppo HA-1 but not going down that path for now. I did sell my other Audeze, an early pair of LCD-2s, darker still than the 3's but with the best bass I've heard on any headphone.
It's good to see magazines and audio shops finally treating headphones as proper HiFi but it can still be a mission to be taken seriously in with some retailers.
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Post by cooksferry on Apr 16, 2017 11:26:01 GMT 12
I'm waiting for cooksferry to be reborn & trade them all for the Focals Sorry Owen, that bird has flown, what I have is basically the end game and probably the only manufacturer I'd look at is Oppo if they come out with something to beat the PM-1. Sort of wish I still had some of the phones I've sold like the Grado RS1 and Audio Technica ATH-AD2000 but can't hold to everything.
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Post by guitardude on Apr 18, 2017 9:44:26 GMT 12
I sometimes wish I still had my LCD2, but it seemed like an awful lot of $ to be wrapped up in one pair of headphones that didn't get used that often. To be honest my other pairs don't get much head time at present either, but at least I don't have huge amounts of $ wrapped up in them. One of the great things about headphones for me was that you can have a bunch of them that don't cost the earth and don't take up too much room.
The Audeze are heavy but quite comfy I found and at least they don't fall off your head like the Staxs do...
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Post by 40hz on Apr 18, 2017 19:49:19 GMT 12
Another reason I don't use my LCDs that much is that I really don't have the right amp for them. As Cooks says, though, nothing quite cracks the deep bass like they do. Soundstage, by contrast, and the HD800s are way out in front. Helps that the Senns are super comfy, and I have a synergistic amp.
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Post by guitardude on Apr 19, 2017 10:20:24 GMT 12
I don't remember the LCD as being particularly difficult to drive ? I drove mine with the headphone stage of a Luxman amp with no issues at all.
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Post by 40hz on Apr 19, 2017 16:43:11 GMT 12
I perhaps should have said that I don't (think) I have the right amp to drive them well. They sound the 'best' out of my Zana Deux, and honestly I have been too lazy to roll tubes to improve things because the Sennheisers don't let them get a look in. (Although I have an idea of which combo might give them a boost).
They are OK out of the headphone jack on my Luxman integrated, which handily isn't in the headphone system, but sound thin and edgy out of my old Meier amp. There aren't a lot of amps that are widely recommended to get them to their best - the Schiit Lyr is one, putting out 4w at the LCD2s' impedance, and giving plenty of headroom above the "bare minimum" 1w recommended by Audez'e themselves.
Anyway, that all amounts to sod-all if you're happy with what you have, which sentiment I guess goes for most things in audio...
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Post by guitardude on Apr 20, 2017 14:54:48 GMT 12
I've never actually had a top pair of Sennheisers, so maybe I need to start saving. They are hard to drive though aren't they ?
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Post by 40hz on Apr 20, 2017 19:41:11 GMT 12
They are, but it seems that there is a longer list of amps that will do the job well.
The technical factors are, so far as I understand it (not very, then), more than just wattage for Senns. Their drivers have a fair bit of voltage swing, which takes some controlling (much like, but nowhere near as much as Stax electrostats), and so an amp which exerts decent control in that respect is desirable.
And having lobbed that in there, I will whistle a merry tune, look to the sky and wander off.
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Post by guitardude on Apr 21, 2017 8:48:57 GMT 12
Hi 40Hz,
Not sure that helps that much as I would be driving them from my custom made valve pre so have no idea of its specifications in that regard. Thanks for your input though, nice to hear an actual persons (as opposed to a reviewers ) thoughts about these things.
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Post by Owen Y on Apr 21, 2017 12:10:00 GMT 12
My thinking would be that Impedance is the key specification. The Senn HD800s are 300 ohms(?) which is is relatively high, ie. easy to drive, even for valves (which tend to be higher output imped than SS).... whereas Grado SR80s for example are only 30-odd ohms impedance, which may be difficult for valves unless esp designed with output low imped. Like any amp-spkr impedance 'match' you want the driving source to be lower than the load by say 1/5 or less, for good power transfer & low distortion. SS devices tend to have much lower output imped (single digits down to a fraction of an ohm) than valve devices.
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Post by Citroen on Apr 21, 2017 19:35:01 GMT 12
My understanding is that the lower the impedance the easier it is to drive and use on portable devices.
e.g Senn HD650 300 ohms doesn't really work connected to my phone but the Grado RS1 32 ohms does work.
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Post by Owen Y on Apr 21, 2017 21:02:38 GMT 12
Let's put it another way.... High & low impedance are both drive-able, but low impedance demands low imped source, or else distortion and/or high power demands (power hungry). Re. Senn HD650 vs Grado RS1.... the HD650 is ~7dB more sensitive, ie. will sound twice as loud as the Grados, for the same watts/vol level input. In other words, it's similar to lspkrs.... Impedance & Sensitivity together, tell you how demanding is the load. (I know little specifically about h/phones but technically....) This may be unimportant with a low impedance and/or high power driving source, but may be critical with highish imped and/or low power sources.
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Post by Citroen on Apr 21, 2017 22:19:59 GMT 12
Not sure on the maths but its definitely the other way around in reality.
That is, the grados are louder and easily driven, whereas the Senn's are quieter and need a more "powerful" amp to drive them/make them sound good.
"Weidemann's explanation for why battery-powered devices perform best with low-impedance headphones is based on this: Most portable players use from 3-volt to a maximum of 5-volt batteries, that means the signal voltage at the output is low, but they can still deliver high current with low-impedance headphones, and the sound will be fine. However, if you plug in a high-impedance headphone to a portable device the voltage and current will be low, so the headphone won't play loudly at all, and dynamics will be reduced."
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Post by Owen Y on Apr 21, 2017 22:52:26 GMT 12
These things work according to Ohm's Law, that's the way my simple brain looks at it.... Voltage & Current in the coil (Resistance) makes the diaphragm move. R = V/I That is: - Higher Imped (AC Resistance) spkr requires more Voltage (V) and/or less Current (I). - Lower Imped spkr requires less Voltage and/or more Current. Some amps can deliver lots of voltage, some amps lots of current, some amps lots of both & some amps little of both.
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Post by Owen Y on Apr 24, 2017 9:01:17 GMT 12
After sleeping on this.... I think that Ohm's Law can tell us a lot more about how these h'phones... The key specs of the Sennheiser HD250 & the Grado RS1 are: HD650 - Impedance 300 ohms, Sensitivity 99db @ 1k, 1mW (sensitivity from Ref Audio Analyzer data). RS1 - Impedance 32 ohms, Sensitivity 94dB @ 1kHz, 1mW (as above). The HD650s are 5dB (1.8x) more sensitive than the RS1s. (1) So the first thing we learn is that the RS1s require 1.8x the amp watts to produce the same SPL as the HD650s. However when we look at current & voltage independently, this is where Impedance comes in.... A derivation of Ohm's Law is (Joule's Law): Therefore, Current I = sq rt (P/R). HD650 required current I = sq rt( 1mW/300) = 0.06mA RS1 required current I = sq rt (1.8mW/32) = 0.24mA (2) The RS1s require 4x the current to produce the same SPL as the HD650s. Voltage V = sq rt (P x R) HD650 required voltage V = sq rt (1mW x 300) = 17.3mV RS1 required voltage V = sq rt (1.8mW x 32) = 7.6mV (3) However the HD650s require 2.3x the voltage to produce the same SPL as the RS1s. The Senns also have significantly more extended bass, which is where the amp-power demands normally are. This probably goes some way to explaining Citroen's observations. Time for a lie-down
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Post by Citroen on Apr 24, 2017 18:58:27 GMT 12
I was thinking more simply, so probably wrongly...
Battery device has a relatively fixed voltage supply (3-5 volts?). Headphones have the variable ie Senn 300 ohm, Grado's 32 ohm.
So the current is less for the Senn's according to Ohm's Law.
And less current equates to lower volume?
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