Post by Owen Y on Jun 13, 2019 11:35:55 GMT 12
A thread about record labels (all music genres) & perceived sound. Let's start with Classical labels & Deutsche Grammophon: Audiophiles have criticised DG for unnatural sounding recordings, but this I think was mainly in their later multi-channel recording style. The earlier 1960s 'tulips border' DG recordings are especially fine sounding. Recently, we were discussing the classic Mravinsky-Tchaikovsky DG LPs & no question, the earlier tulips version is way more dynamic & wider tonal range. The mono issue has special sweetness, clarity, dynamics & presence. ( SONDEK, if he's still around, might have some contribution about classical labels.)
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Post by Citroen on Jun 13, 2019 15:07:44 GMT 12
I've always been a fan of the DG label. Generally consistent sound quality, good pressings, and musical performances. If I find a secondhand record on the DG label, Philips, Decca, Mercury, RCA Victor, Naxos, L'Oiseau-Lyre I'll take a second look. I was surprised to discover that I have 4 versions of the Tchaikovsky Symphony No 6, LPO, Mravinsky.
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Post by michaelw on Jun 13, 2019 17:31:48 GMT 12
not problem with the sonics of most dg, though i never found them consistently excellent, unlike rca lsc, mercury living presence, emi asd, decca etc.
what didn't float my boat were the performances of HVK et al.
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Post by Citroen on Jun 13, 2019 20:37:20 GMT 12
I like Herbert's performances! Despite being a Nazi...
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Post by michaelw on Jun 13, 2019 21:13:35 GMT 12
i like porsche
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 14, 2019 16:34:25 GMT 12
Decca has its followers, but also those who don't care for the Decca approach. In particular the 1960s 'Decca Tree' 3-omni mic setup that they devised for recording a realistic orchestral stereo 'soundstage'. Later, into the 70s, they developed the much-criticised (by hifi enthusiasts) 'Phase 4' series. Some experts say that the best Deccas were the Mono LXT period, but note that the very earliest (with matt, non-laminated covers) require playback EQ slightly different from RIAA. Deccas with their award-winning recording engineer, Kenneth Wilkonson's name on the cover are sometimes sought after by classical hifi enthusiasts. An example of stereo period 'ffss' Decca (late 50s-70s), when Decca were at top of their game.
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Post by michaelw on Jun 14, 2019 19:11:27 GMT 12
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Post by Citroen on Jun 14, 2019 19:15:48 GMT 12
Recently bought for next to nothing (10 cents, as there was no cover). Sounds great. 1960's FFSS Modern day 1980's, still sounds good to me of this classic live performance. Don't think I have any Phase4S or mono Decca's
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 15, 2019 11:10:33 GMT 12
Those '73 Ashkenazy Beethoven Concertos with Solti/CSO are Ken Wilkinson jobs
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Post by Citroen on Jun 15, 2019 16:56:08 GMT 12
Well that helps explain why it sounds so good! Other "audiophile" labels that do re-issues include Analogue Productions, Mobile Fidelity, Music Matters. 1. The few AP records I own, or have listened to, have been excellent. 2. The Music Matters albums I have are some of my most cherished, such as Dolphy's Out To Lunch, Coltrane's Blue Train, Dexter Gordon's Go. These are performances I really like, so have opted for the best versions I could afford. 3. MoFi has its critics depending on the years of production, and tier level. Don't have many of these. Then there's the smaller audiophile labels that have reputably excellent sound but maybe a more specialist musical taste, such as Chesky, Stockfish, MA Recordings, Chasing the Dragon. 1. I don't think I've ever heard a Chesky record 2. I do have a few MA albums and they are stunningly well recorded, but not necessarily the best pressed. More mainstream labels are Linn, Denon, Telarc, Nimbus which I'll instantly take a second look at if found at a thrift store.
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Post by michaelw on Jun 15, 2019 22:47:31 GMT 12
got some chesky rca lsc re-issues. generally blah so you aren't missing anything. their original releases like rebecca pidgeon are much better.
chesky vs. classic records rca lsc re-issues
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 18, 2019 12:36:38 GMT 12
Chesky Records: I have only a couple of the RCA (re)issues I think.... Earl Wild's Rachmaninov P Conc No.2 with Horentein/RPO is really excellent, powerful & dynamic. Chesky's 2nd release(?) ser. no. RC2. Although recorded in England in '65, compared with the sweet Decca tree sound, this RCA string tone is a bit 'sharper'. This American recording has always been a reference Rach P Conc 2 - Wild was one of the few(?) recording pianists to have witnessed Rachmaninov himself play (in America in the '30s) & Horenstein conducted for the great man a few times I believe. The Reiner Sound CSO LP however, is a mixed bag... I've only briefly listened to the Ravel Rhapsody Espagnole & Pavane for a Dead Princess, but they sounded OK. The Rach. Isle of The Dead, OTOH never 'takes off', dynamic range is a bit restrained or something - which is a shame with this moody, building, dramatic piece. Will re-listen soon. Surfaces pretty good, not perfect, but only a couple of clicks & pops.
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Post by michaelw on Jun 18, 2019 12:56:41 GMT 12
never bought the wild.
concur with you on the reiner sound, it's pretty awful (flat, grey, boring) compared to the classic records, which in turn is not as good as an original rca pressing.
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 18, 2019 14:15:14 GMT 12
Well, well, guess what?....
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Post by michaelw on Jun 18, 2019 14:58:26 GMT 12
gerhardt/wilkinson also put together a superb collection of classic film soundtracks, rca's classic film score series.
there were several us and uk issues, the best being herrmann's citizen kane on the uk rca gold seal label.
generally the red/gold seals were excellent, even the cd versions from the late 90s (in stereo and some in dolby surround) were very good sounding.
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 18, 2019 18:17:21 GMT 12
A RCA film score series I believe. Winner of 3 Grammys for Engineering, Kenneth E Wilkinson's wikipedia page is here.
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Post by michaelw on Jun 18, 2019 19:56:42 GMT 12
wilkinson also worked on the lyrita label, producing some of the finest recorded british music - arnold, bax, bliss, lloyd, maconchy et al
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Post by rmc001 on Jun 19, 2019 15:01:07 GMT 12
Somewhere I've got a Wilhelm Backhaus mono record that sounded great as irc. I must try and find it.
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Post by Citroen on Jun 19, 2019 17:55:39 GMT 12
Don't think I have any Phase4S or mono Decca's I found one, Sounds OK, nothing spectacular. Just OK.
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Post by michaelw on Jun 19, 2019 18:03:09 GMT 12
'cos wrc
some regular decca boxes i picked up over the years.
hoffmann is quite good, tosca forgettable, both uk
two very average nz decca boxes
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 19, 2019 19:13:05 GMT 12
Generally, 'box set' issues from all the labels, were often later offerings & not nearly as good sounding as their original single LP issues - but of course large works, eg. opera, ballet, etc (as above), were often released in a multiple-LP box. However, as Chris Rice (New Hi-Fi Sound, 1980s) explains: " ... they are generally later & inferior editions as compared to the single disc issues. What frequently occurs is that if conductor X records a cycle of composer Y's symphonies, the last couple to be recorded will be issued from the same mastering, and the separate boxed editions will be indistinguable from each other. But all the earlier ones will be remastered for the box. " (Which means that the earlier records in the boxed edition might sound slightly different or possibly worse, being from a later generation master. But it doesn't entirely explain to me why the boxed issues often sound VERY different / inferior.)
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Post by Citroen on Jun 19, 2019 19:17:01 GMT 12
Doesn't remastering give them the opportunity to make it sound even better?
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Post by michaelw on Jun 19, 2019 20:03:53 GMT 12
i don't think any of those boxes were compiled from single albums ?
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 20, 2019 11:01:04 GMT 12
No, the operas usually spread over a few LPs. Doesn't remastering give them the opportunity to make it sound even better? Potentially. yes. You'd think they'd go back to the metal master & plate another mother disc. Or at least a new stamper from an existing mother. But, if you look at the Mravinsky Tchaik example, you'll see that the 6th single LP (tulip border) is pressed with a stamper from a different mastering - the groove area / groove pitch is wider on the single LP. If it was Decca, you'd be able to see in their matrix codes - master tape no., master lacquer no., mother no., stamper no., master lacquer engineer...!
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Post by michaelw on Jun 20, 2019 11:40:07 GMT 12
Doesn't remastering give them the opportunity to make it sound even better? opportunity usually squandered.
97% of the remasters i've heard were worse than originals.
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 20, 2019 11:53:29 GMT 12
Some may be interested in the various sub-labels & separate record labels that DECCA, for example, are/were associated with. A quick count & as I understand them.... Phase 4 - a period of multi-channel mixed recordings, in '60s - 70s. Jubilee - created for Queen Elizabeth's Silver Jubilee in '77 Ace of Diamonds - mostly low-priced re-issues of deleted classical titles, but some new releases. Viva! - selected 'finest & best known' versions of classical recordings. Argo - a label acquired by Decca, issued classical, plays, jazz, ethnic music. Decca Digital - emerged in the late 70s as Decca adopted digital recording technology. L'Oiseau-Lyre - originally a French brand founded by an Australian (hence the Lyre bird), acquired by Decca & specialising in Baroque music, often on period instruments. Engineered by Decca, typically high sound quality. London - originally a British label selling in the Americas, acquired by Decca & later Warners. Classical, later pop, eg early Stones, later included other licensed American labels. Others?
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Post by Citroen on Jun 20, 2019 12:46:30 GMT 12
Didn't know that L'Oiseau-Lyre were a Decca subsidiary. I have a few lower priced Decca Eclipse LPs.
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Post by michaelw on Jun 20, 2019 13:13:51 GMT 12
i like the simplicity of those covers
uk pressing ?
good sound ?
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Post by Citroen on Jun 20, 2019 14:37:17 GMT 12
Nice punchy, vibrant sounding UK pressings. Will have to give one a spin later on maybe to refresh my memory.
Apparently bought from Denton's Record Shop, possibly from their 246 Queen Street, Auckland branch by Peter Hugo in the early 70's (as each record has his name and date written in fountain pen on the back!).
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Post by Citroen on Jun 20, 2019 15:17:33 GMT 12
Excerpts of the Mozart and Beethoven Sym 3 sounds damn fine. The Elgar sounds thin and screechy
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