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Post by kentyg on May 11, 2018 23:09:00 GMT 12
I live in Tron, have olive series Naim amps (102 and 180) and SBL Naim speakers. I run Spotify through a chromecast into a Beresford DAC, or spin vinyl on a Rega RP1 and Rega fono stage.
i'm wanting to deviate from the current Naim style to something with more in the bottom end...toying with getting an amp but would prefer to try replacing the speakers...but all of my background reading and forum support is from my time living in London. I feel a bit lost for brands here in NZ, but am only ever into second hand gear that has become affordable.
anyone know of Naim and have suggestions for speakers to consider that are available here?
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Post by Owen Y on May 11, 2018 23:49:59 GMT 12
Welcome kentyg, nice to have you on board Can you give an indication of budget, for amp and/or lspkrs?
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Post by kentyg on May 12, 2018 20:47:05 GMT 12
If just replacing speakers around $1500 ...and maybe $1500 for the right amps. I guess if I can get good money for my current gear then those figures could wiggle higher 😊
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Hi everyone May 13, 2018 14:38:38 GMT 12
- Edited May 13, 2018 14:40:52 GMT 12 by Owen Y
Post by Owen Y on May 13, 2018 14:38:38 GMT 12
Do you find the Naim amp-spkr combo is subjectively lacking a little in LF extension, warmth in tonal balance? Those familiar with NZ-made Plinius amps may have some good suggestions for a s/h amp with good performance in the LF bandwidth & good tonal balance department. Loudspkrs?
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Post by sub on May 13, 2018 14:54:42 GMT 12
Can thoroughly recommend Plinius. Integrated amps like 8150, ( which I have), 8200, 9100 or 9200 would be perfect, but seldom come up 2nd hand. Perreaux 200iP (not to be confused with the 200i - also known as the Radiance and fairly expensive) could also work for you - but again seldom seen. Speakers, stick to the British brands you know, although nz made Image can be very good. Use old Mission 753s myself.
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Post by davidsylvian on May 15, 2018 18:53:38 GMT 12
I would try a REL sub first if possible before ditching the system. The amp and speakers would sound better with something of higher quality than Spotify allows. I use Spotify/Chromecast for the family in the dining room system (Chord 2Qute DAC, Naim Supernait2, B&W 803S or Epos ES14 speakers). The drop in quality from CD and especially hi-res files is very evident, although the convenience is fantastic. Have you tried any of Tidal's hi-res or CD quality streaming options to compare with Spotify? It might be worth a try?
Cheers, Greg
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Post by kentyg on May 19, 2018 22:57:21 GMT 12
Thanks for the input everyone. I have since bought a pair of PSB Synchrony One speakers, and am in the middle of A/B testing against the Naim SBLs.
It's quite tough... the PSBs have all the low end oomph I've been craving, but while they are beautifully clear and detailed, they don't have same soundstage and imaging as the SBLs. I've read that they can be fussier with placement, so need to experiment further.
I might grab a Rel sub I've seen on Trade Me to try the sub option and on sell whichever one loses the battle...but have also seen a Perreaux Audiant 80i amp that piqued my interest. What are people's thoughts on Perreaux? As favoured as Plinius seems to be?
Side question...what do you guys do to isolate your speakers from our cursed suspended wooden floors? I have underlay and carpet on my floors in the lounge, with typical NZ jib and wooden frame walls...is it best to use spikes through the carpet, or put the speakers on pavers with sorbothane pads under the speaker?
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Pundit
Post by neilsan on May 20, 2018 0:18:11 GMT 12
I've gone from spikes to these.Herbie's Cone/Spike Decoupling Gliders.Found I much prefer them to the excess bass I used to get in our old house. herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm
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Pundit
Post by rocl on May 20, 2018 9:10:27 GMT 12
similar room to you and the herbies were a significant step up in clarity. i got them after reading a thread on here and am pleased i did.
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Post by michaelw on May 20, 2018 11:37:58 GMT 12
What are people's thoughts on Perreaux? As favoured as Plinius seems to be? Side question...what do you guys do to isolate your speakers from our cursed suspended wooden floors? I have underlay and carpet on my floors in the lounge, with typical NZ jib and wooden frame walls...is it best to use spikes through the carpet, or put the speakers on pavers with sorbothane pads under the speaker? welcome kentyg.
i've found it quite easy to distinguish between Perreaux/Plinius (and PureAudio - coinicdence they all chose names starting with P ?).
perreaux is very solid state in tonality, plinius a bit plumbier/musical, pureaudio somewhere in between.
in an ancient abode my listening room was on the second level, wooden floor above the garage. after much experimenting, spikes on pavers was the best sonic solution with my speakers at the time - celestion sl6 and magnepan mg1b. they looked ugly though.
i'd stay away from sorbothane for speakers as the aim is to fix the speakers in space. soft squishy materials tend to lead to blurry sound.
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Pundit
Post by neilsan on May 20, 2018 20:33:26 GMT 12
With the herbies the spikes sit in a hollow on top of them. I normally have my speakers against the wall so when I want to listen seriously it's easy to slide them out.
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Hi everyone May 20, 2018 21:00:20 GMT 12
- Edited May 20, 2018 22:55:26 GMT 12 by Owen Y
Post by Owen Y on May 20, 2018 21:00:20 GMT 12
Hi kentyg - I see that the Synchrony Ones have load imped 4 ohms pretty much all the way down their freq range. So you'd want an amp that can deliver into 4 ohms load & Wpc depending on your listening levels, listening distance, listening loudness, music preferences, etc.
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Hi everyone May 20, 2018 21:39:44 GMT 12
- Edited May 20, 2018 21:57:29 GMT 12 by kentyg
Post by kentyg on May 20, 2018 21:39:44 GMT 12
Thanks guys. It wouldn't be a proper forum without conflicting opinions huh 😌😝 ...maybe worth trying just spikes and then if the bass is resonating badly maybe try pavers, then if still having issues experiment with blue tack or squash balls cut in half to see if gliders are worth pursuing perhaps? I've read on another forum that WhatHiFi suggested this idea a while back as being a cheap and rather effective isolation method.
On another note...I have a bummer of an update - while revelling in the presence of some long overdue and pleasing bass, I was giving the new PSBs a 'pass' for having a midrange that had little or no imaging - like a section of the soundstage was very clearly coming from a left and right speaker and refused to blend in and be part of the spacial sense of the other frequencies. It wasn't until I listened to an album I knew very well that has very pronounced left and right speaker separation for the two guitar parts, that I realised - the mids were a LOT quieter out of one speaker. Iike about 60-70% less volume from the mid driver compared to the other speaker.
I swapped the speakers over to test that it wasn't the amps or cable causing the issue, and the problem swapped sides. Dammit.
The mid driver looks cosmetically perfect, and I believe the guy I bought it off when he says that he had no idea there was anything wrong with them (I called him to discuss the issue, older guy who has only been using them to listen to movies through for the past couple of years) ... so wondering what to do.
I think they are worth getting checked out and repaired - paid $1200 and they retailed for $6000 when new 8 years ago - ...but have never done this sort of thing before - any idea how much (ballpark range) I'd be looking at to get a mid driver replaced?
I'm a simpleton on such matters, but it seems odd that it looks perfect, glides in and out smoothly when I gently push the fabric of the driver in...if it had blown, would it still play and just be quieter like it is?!
Or is it likely/possible it's just a loose/poor connection?
I have emailed PSB in Canada for a quote for a mid driver and shipping.
Anyone know a good hifi technician in the Waikato region by any chance?
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Post by Owen Y on May 20, 2018 23:02:56 GMT 12
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Post by kentyg on May 21, 2018 11:00:06 GMT 12
Hi kentyg - I see that the Synchrony Ones have load imped 4 ohms pretty much all the way down their freq range. So you'd want an amp that can deliver into 4 ohms load & Wpc depending on your listening levels, listening distance, listening loudness, music preferences, etc. Yes I have Naim amps that can handle that load - NAC102 preamp into NAP180 power amp.
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Post by Owen Y on May 21, 2018 11:22:07 GMT 12
kentyg - your l'spker problem could very well be an electronic problem (crossover components) or a simple mechanical problem (internal or external connections loose or corroded). Unless you are handy & can lift out a driver/s & take a look inside, then best to engage someone like Audiomark.
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Post by kentyg on May 21, 2018 15:03:27 GMT 12
I gave Mark at Audiomark a call....won't be able to make a trip up there until the weekend at the earliest. The problem is that the PSB Synchrony One speakers have no visible fixings for the drivers...the seal around the edge of each driver must cover them, and I would know where to start trying to get it off without scratching the aluminum facing they are mounted on! Pics show what I mean....any ideas how they would be removed without sacrificing the rubber mount around the driver?! The back is completely closed apart from the bass ports (3, one for each 6.5inch driver)...but the one closest to the mid driver is where the tweeter is, so of no use for accessing the mid from the back. kentyg - your l'spker problem could very well be an electronic problem (crossover components) or a simple mechanical problem (internal or external connections loose or corroded). Unless you are handy & can lift out a driver/s & take a look inside, then best to engage someone like Audiomark.
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Post by Owen Y on May 21, 2018 15:17:10 GMT 12
Those trim rings (plastic usually) are normally push-on - yes tricky to remove & VERY careful not to scratch the baffle face (alumin you say?).
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Post by Owen Y on May 21, 2018 15:23:22 GMT 12
Can you detach the bottom rear plate with the binding posts? If so, the crossover probably resides on the floor inside - and you can visually check connections or any other obvious anomalies. (The bott LF driver would be the other way to get in there - those trim rings look to have an edge flange that you may be able to get under to lift? - I would choose something not metal, eg a plastic blade or such, perhaps from the bott edge, carefully!) Strong fingernails?
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Post by kentyg on May 22, 2018 15:50:46 GMT 12
Can you detach the bottom rear plate with the binding posts? If so, the crossover probably resides on the floor inside - and you can visually check connections or any other obvious anomalies. (The bott LF driver would be the other way to get in there - those trim rings look to have an edge flange that you may be able to get under to lift? - I would choose something not metal, eg a plastic blade or such, perhaps from the bott edge, carefully!) Strong fingernails? Fingernails indeed did the trick! I got the driver out, so that's a huge win, as now I can just courier that up to Mark Bundy - thanks for that tip, he's a diamond geezer 😊 Will have a quick look at the crossover wiring to this evening veggie shipping the driver off. Thanks very much for the help on this!
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Post by Owen Y on May 22, 2018 16:20:22 GMT 12
Hi kentyg - it's not real clear whether the driver is the problem. Did he request the other mid driver for comparison? Yes have a good look at internal connections & xover components before shipping the driver. If you havE a multimeter, you could quickly check the driver coil continuity & resistance (comparing the 2 drivers)?
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Post by kentyg on May 23, 2018 7:59:11 GMT 12
Hi kentyg - it's not real clear whether the driver is the problem. Did he request the other mid driver for comparison? Yes have a good look at internal connections & xover components before shipping the driver. If you havE a multimeter, you could quickly check the driver coil continuity & resistance (comparing the 2 drivers)? The panel with the speaker cable posts on it was NOT coming off...nothing visible or obvious to remove, the surround wasn't 'pushed on' like the rubber around the speakers. I tried unscrewing the posts but they wouldn't budge, and no screw heads visible anywhere, so I'll send the driver off tomorrow to Audiomark and see what he can find out. He didn't ask for both...but I wondered that myself. It is producing sound, just a lot quieter and muffled compared to the other one. I do have a multimeter....wouldn't know where to start trying to measure anything, but just had a look online and , of coutse, several very helpful Americans have posted videos on exactly how to do this. God bless 'Merica :-) Seems a good idea to check that before sending it off, thanks very much for the tip! Got the quote for a replacement driver - USD $188 incl postage to US address (I have an NZ Post US address hooked up) ...so probs NZD$300 or so delivered here.....so that's Plan B.
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Post by Owen Y on May 23, 2018 9:56:56 GMT 12
Hi kentyg - OK A cone driver like that usually has only a few common things wrong with it.... - the cone may have become misaligned & the coils is 'rubbing' when moving in & out - you can easily check this (I think you did already) by pushing on both side carefully. - the coil wiring has somehow become damaged - check this with an ohms meter, measuring across the 2 connection terminals - if the driver is specified say 8 ohms, it might measure 6-8 ohms. - otherwise it's just physical damage, eg to the outer rubber/foam 'surround' or to the inner 'spider' support (a corrugated ring typically). The other driver should of course match the 6-8 ohms 'DC' resistance measurement.
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Post by Owen Y on May 23, 2018 9:59:48 GMT 12
If you can see the crossover, visually check if anything looks well connected, nothing looks burnt (resistors esp). Apart from checking good connections, that's about all you can do without tech assistance. PS. be sure that the Synchrony's bi-wire links are all properly attached.
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Post by kentyg on May 23, 2018 10:49:23 GMT 12
Hi kentyg - OK A cone driver like that usually has only a few common things wrong with it.... - the cone may have become misaligned & the coils is 'rubbing' when moving in & out - you can easily check this (I think you did already) by pushing on both side carefully. - the coil wiring has somehow become damaged - check this with an ohms meter, measuring across the 2 connection terminals - if the driver is specified say 8 ohms, it might measure 6-8 ohms. - otherwise it's just physical damage, eg to the outer rubber/foam 'surround' or to the inner 'spider' support (a corrugated ring typically). The other driver should of course match the 6-8 ohms 'DC' resistance measurement. Legend, thanks! So, I can confirm that the cone glides perfectly, so it isn't that. The foam outer edge is also perfect, so isn't that either. Less sure re: spider...is there a way to test that with the multi meter? If it is a damaged spider is it a case of needing to replace the whole driver? Or is there a chance Mark can repair the damaged spider? Just to clarify - if the ohms are the same on both mid drivers, does that mean it still could have a damaged spider? With a whole new driver only costing $300 ballpark delivered to me and no labour on top, that might be less faffing if it passes the ohms test I'm thinking....thoughts?
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Post by kentyg on May 23, 2018 10:53:14 GMT 12
If you can see the crossover, visually check if anything looks well connected, nothing looks burnt (resistors esp). Apart from checking good connections, that's about all you can do without tech assistance. PS. be sure that the Synchrony's bi-wire links are all properly attached. All I can see is the posts on the outside...they all look fine and the bi-wire links are fine and secured well under each cable input post wingnut.
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Post by Owen Y on May 23, 2018 12:21:09 GMT 12
So, I can confirm that the cone glides perfectly, so it isn't that. The foam outer edge is also perfect, so isn't that either. Less sure re: spider...is there a way to test that with the multi meter? If it is a damaged spider is it a case of needing to replace the whole driver? Or is there a chance Mark can repair the damaged spider? Just to clarify - if the ohms are the same on both mid drivers, does that mean it still could have a damaged spider? With a whole new driver only costing $300 ballpark delivered to me and no labour on top, that might be less faffing if it passes the ohms test I'm thinking....thoughts? OK.... - the driver is OK, if it matches the other & checks out OK. You could swap the mid drivers L to R ch to check further (return them to orig cabinet). - if the drivers also measure same, the problem is likely in the internal circuit from input posts to driver - ie the wiring or crossover. The spider is seldom damaged, unlikely to be a problem. You can visually inspect it, but if the cones moves freely, then that' should be good enough.
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Post by Owen Y on May 23, 2018 12:25:22 GMT 12
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Post by kentyg on May 23, 2018 13:13:36 GMT 12
Spider is immaculate as well...and just darted home at lunchtime to test the ohms.. .it's a 4ohm speaker and it's reading at 3.5ohms...exactly the same as the other driver. Dammit!!!
Just tested swapping the mid drivers...issue is in the speaker!! Great to know, but heart breaking as well...I can't see how to get inside the speaker to see the crossover wiring. Pic below using flash to show cable posts.
I'm also embarrassed to say after swapping drivers over I literally stuck my ear up to each driver and now realise that the faulty speaker is producing ZERO sound. My brain was interpreting low muffled sound from it, but it was actually drawing tops from the tweeter just underneath it and some low mids from one of the three woofer drivers!
So that means that the mid driver in the crook speaker is getting no signal, right?
Any ideas for what I can check next? How did I get in to look at or test the crossover? Can I test it at the cable posts?
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Post by kentyg on May 23, 2018 13:19:49 GMT 12
No screws down the barrel of the banana plug hole, no way the rubber surround prizes off, it's thick and glued in place solidly, and I tried twisting the base of the wingnut posts but they didn't budge either. Excuse the fluff on them...the rubber surround is slightly tacky and they've been lying down on the carpet 😊
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