Post by sub on Dec 9, 2020 9:46:27 GMT 12
Is it possible to use hearing aids to return your hearing to the point that one’s Hifi sounds like it used to?
about two weeks ago I suffered a catastrophic loss of hearing. Suddenly everything became muffled, female voices hard to discern words and their voices had a hard steely vibrating edge to it. Needless to say my attempts to enjoy music failed utterly. Could hear the sound, but no inner detail, and the magic midrange had gone.
went for my six week check up with ENT yesterday (regular checks to ensure tumour has not returned), told them of hearing loss - assuming it was a by product of my neck dissection op last March. Had a hearing test and the bad news it seems to be the result of accumulated noise damage over the years - high calibre firearms, skill saws, drop saws, chainsaws, hammer work, driving earth moving machinery etc.
i have no hearing in the “normal” range, L ear starts at -15dBdown at 250hz, dropping rapidly to -80dB at 8khz.
R ear starts at -30dB at 250hz, dropping to -75dB at 8khz.
not a very satisfactory frequency curve! The Dr suggested I could regain my pleasure of listening to music with an appropriate hearing aids.
Is there anyone here who uses hearing aids? Do they work? Or should I bite the bullet and start selling everything off, especially since I will be 79 next Birthday?
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Post by Graham on Dec 9, 2020 10:00:30 GMT 12
Hi Sub Don't despair, todays hearing aids are quite amazing. I discover a couple of years ago that the hearing in my left ear was much less than in my right ear. After numerous tests by Triton Hearing I was supplied with a pair of Phonak hearing aids which transformed my hearing and also music appreciation. They are rather expensive at $5000 but are customized to the individuals needs to restore hearing as best as possible. They also are rechargeable rather than faffing about with tiny little batteries. I wear them all day and put them on the charger every night. Cheers Graham. 
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Post by sub on Dec 9, 2020 10:29:25 GMT 12
Thanks Graham. Yes I expect a cost up to say $6K, which if works would be cost effective.
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Pundit
Post by beeman on Dec 9, 2020 11:17:52 GMT 12
Yep agree with Graham. I have worn hearing aids for years & in fact your hearing loss may not have happened all at once as you think
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Post by Owen Y on Dec 9, 2020 12:10:09 GMT 12
i have no hearing in the “normal” range, L ear starts at -15dBdown at 250hz, dropping rapidly to -80dB at 8khz. R ear starts at -30dB at 250hz, dropping to -75dB at 8khz. not a very satisfactory frequency curve! Human hearing does not have a 'flat frequency response'. eg. Normal human hearing in the LFs is very insensitive. Ref. the famous Fletcher Munson 'equal loudness' curves: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contourBut presumably your audiologist took this into account & anyway you know that you have suffered some significant hearing loss. In the HFs of course, natural roll-off with age is a fact of life for everyone. Lots of folks use v good hearing aid technology or such devices as cochlear implants.
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Post by sub on Dec 9, 2020 12:11:30 GMT 12
Yep agree with Graham. I have worn hearing aids for years & in fact your hearing loss may not have happened all at once as you think Thanks beeman, reassuring info. You are correct that hearing loss probably did occur gradually, but the onset of very muffled sound did seem to happen overnight. the context of that, is I had regained a lot of energy after my major op, had resurrected three neglected garden beds, got the planted in veges, then emptied the wood shed, storing its contents under the house ready for winter. Had come across quite a lot that wa too long for the fire box, made a heap of that, pulled out the drop saw,mounted on its trolley, got things set up to cut, realised I had forgotten my earmuffs, but was too lazy to walk the 100 or so metres back to the house, and happily cut things up for about half an hour. Could have been the final straw for the ears! Carried on emptying a large large stack of building supplies stored in the carport adjacent to the wood shed, stacked it neatly in the wood shed, leaving just over half it’s space to refill with firewood. When full, the contents last me just over four years. Have a large stack of rounds ready to split, left over from milling the macrocarpa trees shown in my avatar. Should get anther three years out of it, but a heck of a lot of heavy duty axe swinging to do!
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Post by sub on Dec 9, 2020 12:23:09 GMT 12
i have no hearing in the “normal” range, L ear starts at -15dBdown at 250hz, dropping rapidly to -80dB at 8khz. R ear starts at -30dB at 250hz, dropping to -75dB at 8khz. not a very satisfactory frequency curve! Human hearing does not have a 'flat frequency response'. eg. Normal human hearing in the LFs is very insensitive. Ref. the famous Fletcher Munson 'equal loudness' curves: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contourBut presumably your audiologist took this into account & anyway you know that you have suffered some significant hearing loss. In the HFs of course, natural roll-off with age is a fact of life for everyone. Lots of folks use v good hearing aid technology or such devices as cochlear implants. Yes, I have limited technical knowledge of the issues involved. I attach a photo showing test results. The technician told me that “normal” hearing would show in the greyed area at the top. There is considerable roll off in the higher frequencies. The worst factor is the distortion giving a grating edge to female voices. Ha not previously experienced that. 
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Post by foveaux on Dec 9, 2020 12:57:04 GMT 12
Yep agree with Graham. I have worn hearing aids for years & in fact your hearing loss may not have happened all at once as you think Thanks beeman, reassuring info. You are correct that hearing loss probably did occur gradually, but the onset of very muffled sound did seem to happen overnight. the context of that, is I had regained a lot of energy after my major op, had resurrected three neglected garden beds, got the planted in Vegas, then emptied the wood shed, storing its contents under the house ready for winter. Had come across quite a lot that wa too long for the fire box, mad a heap of that, pulled out the drop saw,mounted on its trolley, got things set up to cut, realised I had forgotten my earmuffs, but was too lazy to walk the 100 or so metres back to the house, and happily cut things up for about half an hour. Could have been the final straw for the ears! Carried on emptying a large large stack of building supplies stored in the carport adjacent to the wood shed, stacked it neatly in the wood shed, leaving just over half it’s space to refill with firewood. When full, the contents last me just over four years. Have a large stack of rounds ready to split, left over from milling the macrocarpa trees shown in my avatar. Should get anther three years out of it, but a heck of a lot of heavy duty axe swinging to do! Heck, thats a very impressive workload for a 78yr young 'un! I've often worried about my hearing degradation (age related) and pondered when I would inevitably need Hearing Aids. My wife got her Aids, for both ears, about 8 months ago. She commented that she'd never enjoyed music so much since getting them. She now scans thru my ZenMini files (same as your server) exploring tunes for herself! Her aids can be fully operated/adjusted from her cellphone and streams wifi (TV, Zen), Spotify, RNZ and 'phone calls etc. direct to her ears via the aids. The down-side is for me - I now have to keep my muttering/cursing down, 'cause she can hear me easily...
"I see music as a lifetime affair." [Rory Gallagher]
"Free - I miss that band, but when I look back, we were very young" [Paul Rodgers]
862 posts
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Post by michaelw on Dec 9, 2020 13:42:09 GMT 12
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Post by sub on Dec 9, 2020 16:23:44 GMT 12
Thanks for all the replies. I feel reassured that quality hearing aids will be of benefit in listening to music. Going to take the doctors advice and try for an ACC claim first. It will be marvellous to listen to music again.
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Post by RdM on Dec 9, 2020 20:16:12 GMT 12
Sympathy for that hearing problem & I hope that the new technology will really help!
And if there is a next time, walk that extra 100m ! ;=})
Best wishes !!
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Post by Owen Y on Dec 9, 2020 20:59:21 GMT 12
Hi John sub - when all the dust has settled (hearing aids, etc.) maybe you should seriously consider a pair of KEF LS50 Wireless active loudspeakers? These 'DSP-active' loudspeakers enable you to tailor the sound balance to suit your ears & environment - to some extent. You will no longer need a separate amplifier, but will need a separate phono stage for the TT. John Darko (& John Atkinson also as I recall) own KEF LS50s (passive version), so they can't be too bad 
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Post by sub on Dec 9, 2020 21:34:07 GMT 12
Hi John sub - when all the dust has settled (hearing aids, etc.) maybe you should seriously consider a pair of KEF LS50 Wireless active loudspeakers? These 'DSP-active' loudspeakers enable you to tailor the sound balance to suit your ears & environment - to some extent. You will no longer need a separate amplifier, but will need a separate phono stage for the TT. John Darko (& John Atkinson also as I recall) own KEF LS50s (passive version), so they can't be too bad Owen, thanks for the info. I have in the not too distant past owned a pair of LS50s, passive. Marvellous performance, but did not fit with my housemates ideals of decor! Long sold. Very taken with the LS50 Metas per recent reviews. They benefit from being able to be used near field. Didn’t know the wireless models could be tailored to suit listening needs. I have a well regarded phono pre already - Perreaux VP3 which is fantastically easy to use with my two turntables. in hindsight, the issues I was discussing on the Topic room Acoustics, where I was moaning about my bass heavy sound from my Kef 104/2 spkrs, were no doubt caused by my worsening hearing. Clearly, given the hearing response curve shown above, attempts to redress lack of mids and highs by turning up the volume, simply made things worse! However, the first thing I to get the hearing aids. Will start seriously looking after Christmas.
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Post by Owen Y on Dec 10, 2020 8:42:01 GMT 12
The LS50 Wireless has (some) EQ settings. See p.61 of the Wireless II Manual here. DARKO explains in his video (2:15) - see my 8 May post in our KEF LS 50 loudspeakers thread. A snip from the manual: (EQ adjustments are not huge, but may be useful in your circumstances.) 
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Post by Owen Y on Dec 10, 2020 17:36:59 GMT 12
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Post by RdM on Dec 10, 2020 18:49:12 GMT 12
Hi John sub - when all the dust has settled (hearing aids, etc.) in hindsight, the issues I was discussing on the Topic room Acoustics, where I was moaning about my bass heavy sound from my Kef 104/2 spkrs, were no doubt caused by my worsening hearing. Clearly, given the hearing response curve shown above, attempts to redress lack of mids and highs by turning up the volume, simply made things worse! However, the first thing I to get the hearing aids. Will start seriously looking after Christmas.
Perhaps having tune up dialed in hearing aids will obviate the need to compensate by turning up treble to the speakers alone, though even with hearing aids some speaker (amp) lift might be useful too? The speaker amp only EQ question might become how much increased mid & peaking treble / tweeter volume your ever loving housemate can stand, unless also having failing ears? Age related or not.
So still might be worth trying EQ immediately, but I also still think positioning is important in that hexagonal room you showed us, bass bouncing around the back room, tweeters a long way away & etc.
What about (again;- ) bringing them forward to peek in to the main room, pointed at the couch, and then experiment with EQ / tone controls on top of that? Because of the wood range, you can't bring even further in, but the idea to listen to them a little more near field?
Like nearby giant headphones, well not that close, but even that much closer and angled in - might it help?
Just as an or a temporary experiment, you know! ;=})
Best! ;=})
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Post by sub on Dec 11, 2020 9:29:23 GMT 12
Thanks RdM, lots of good advice, however too much work mounting up outside this time of year to start rearranging furniture. Especially the speakers, as the cables run under the floor, which would involve clambering around in a confined space, then drilling holes in the floor elsewhere. I think my housemate would object to that! EQ would be good idea, but want to save dollars to pay for hearing aids first, so not going to buy any new gear just now, except, now the horse has bolted, some new earmuffs. Current pair, not the Stihl set connected to the hard hat with face protection shown in my avatar, are over 20 yrs old and showing wear! Use the hard hat set up when using chainsaw and brushcutter, and the old stand alone pair for power tools.
Will wait until after Christmas, then see what difference hearing aids make.
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Pundit
Post by garym on Dec 13, 2020 19:56:46 GMT 12
Hearing aids are correcting per ear and with quite subtle adjustments. I have them now and I hate to admit, everything does sound better with them. If you were to try to achieve that with eq in the playback system you would be feeding the same signal to both ears and the room's contribution as well. You'd be limiting the system to your needs exclusively too. Aids can be done affordably (including the stuff up in the $6k region) via Ebay and the hearing aid forum.
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Post by sub on Jan 4, 2021 13:22:26 GMT 12
Have appointments at my two local audiologists shortly. Bay and Triton are in Kerikeri. Been doing a lot of research on line. Bay sell Resound and Triton sell Phonak brands. Both highly regarded.. none of them list prices! Spec savers have branched out into Audiology at selected stores and are the only ones to list prices. Trouble is the nearest Soecsavers selling hearing aids is in Auckland. Asked on google “best hearing aids for listening to music”. The article that popped up suggests tha all hearing aids are optimised for listening to speech, but two brands were recommended by users as best for music - Resound and Oticon. However the models named are from 2018, so other brands may now have caught up. Graham, in his post above, recommends Phonak. Others, above, write about using hearing aids to good effect, but do not list the model they use. Anyone else here who can recommend a brand? The article I read gave a diagram showing the difference in range between language and music - interesting. 
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Post by Citroen on Jan 4, 2021 13:53:06 GMT 12
The way of the future?
Forget about room treatments. Go direct to the ear, to tailor the sound, even for those of "normal" hearing?
(I'm getting older and have quite a bit of high frequency loss, and a bit of tinnitus in one ear).
Maybe not cheap at around $5k but could be worse, cf other High end hifi upgrades.
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Pundit
Post by garym on Jan 4, 2021 21:05:45 GMT 12
Music... Widex is most commonly recommended. All brands have a music program with minimum compression etc. The most expensive models will auto switch to the music program when music is recognised. All audiologists sell most if not all brands. They might not offer you other than the going promotional deal though. Triton gave me a 10 day trial of an Oticon model, but I ended up buying elsewhere some Phonaks. And they won't offer a trial of a model above your budget. Seek out the hearing aid forum and start reading....
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Post by sub on Jan 4, 2021 23:11:58 GMT 12
Have been scrolling through the hearing aid forum, thanks for the heads up Gary M.
Most posters there are in North America.
According to consumer.org, most big name audiologists in nz are owned by the international companies who make hearing aids. E.g. Bay and Dilworth are owned by the company that makes Resound, Triton - Phonak. Consumer recommends going to an independent audiologist, who will have a range of makes to choose from. Whereas consumer.org cites examples of people being oversold when the manufacturer owned stores are pressured to meet sales targets, rather than consumer needs. Bit like going to a Hifi store and only having one brand to chose from!
Unfortunately there are no independently owned Audiology outlets north of Auckland, where I would have to go to buy the Widex brand, as reviewed by Fremer cited by Michael Wong above.
There is the option of buying on line, but as I do not trust my skills to use apps etc to fine tune hearing aids to suit my ears, I would have to use a local audiologist. It seems that they may not tune makes they do not sell (Triton) or they charge an exorbitant fee - $1380 quoted by Bay. Apparently they wish to discourage grey imports!
Specsavers seem to be the most economic, and do sell three different brands, but again they are in Auckland. May have to go and stay with my sister, once I’ve settled on a brand and model. Although, enticingly, Triton are offering up to $2K off top models of Phonak until 31/1/21, who do have a local to me store. We shall see!
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Post by michaelw on Jan 5, 2021 9:32:46 GMT 12
As these things will need lots of fine tuning I'd stay with a local supplier.
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Pundit
Post by garym on Jan 10, 2021 9:55:09 GMT 12
Wearables are coming to this party. As soon as US regulators deal with sales of over the counter hearing aids there will be a rush from manufacturers currently producing Bluetooth earbuds. These can easily add in hearing correction. I have a pair of Jabra 75t which have some of this capability and to be honest sound fantastic for musical listening .
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Post by rmc001 on Jan 10, 2021 10:16:12 GMT 12
Don't know if this is helpful but a friend who wears hearing aids told me Phonak will be selling one soon with 2 mics per ear so you can focus on a person's voice in a busy area by turning towards them. Sounded interesting to me as I have the same difficulty in groups or crowds.
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Pundit
Post by garym on Jan 10, 2021 21:16:05 GMT 12
I'm pretty sure they already do. Mine have two little microphone holes on their top side. Hearing aids are focused primarily on speech and all their processing is aimed at difficult situations where you are trying to hear speech in a background of noise. Directionally is one of the tools they use. Some of this stuff gets in the way of music listening where you don't want compression or directional filtering. The music program usually turns a lot of this off.
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Pundit
Post by steviewunda on Jan 11, 2021 9:45:46 GMT 12
Hi Sub - I'm interested in your experience trialling hearing aids, and have just booked an appointment with Triton in Hamilton. Have you had an appointment yet? And does anyone have personal experience with the Widex hearing aids reviewed by Michael Fremer (as referenced earlier in this thread). The .5 ms processing time sounds good - does real-world experience show a perceivable difference?
Cheers, Steve
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Post by sub on Jan 11, 2021 10:59:36 GMT 12
Hi Steve, am booked with Bay Audiology on 14th, and Triton on 19th. Googled Widex, and have found an audiologist dealing with the brand, in Kerikeri. May check them out, but someone on TradeMe is selling a second hand Widex model which they say they purchased from Bay. Although it seems I won’t be able to afford the Moment 440 model reviewed by Fremer, if nz pricing is similar to USA. TheMoment 330 also has a music mode and maybe affordable, although trying to get a handle on prices using on line searches reveal most nz audiologists are rather shy about listing prices. Let you know how I get on.
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Pundit
Post by steviewunda on Jan 11, 2021 14:37:08 GMT 12
Thanks Sub - I have booked a couple of appointments too, and will post my impressions.
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Pundit
Post by garym on Jan 11, 2021 18:23:41 GMT 12
One other factor with the aids is their digitization ceiling. How many bits and at what dB spl they overload. Can be relevant for live music. Watching with interest.
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