Post by foveaux on Jun 3, 2019 17:22:43 GMT 12
"Free - I miss that band, but when I look back, we were very young" [Paul Rodgers]
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Pundit
Post by beeman on Jun 3, 2019 19:54:29 GMT 12
Holly hell - $9500.00 USD thats alot for 70s styled legs. Likewise would be interested in opinions
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Post by colinf on Jun 3, 2019 22:26:49 GMT 12
Most single cones I’ve heard have superbly cohesive sound between midrange and treble, and resolve harmonics very well. Although a few can sound peaky in the upper mids (older Lowthers) and generally light in the bottom end. But not all...AERs seem to be quite neutral. At the Munich show there seemed to be a tendency for designers using full range drivers to integrate them with a well thought out bass setup. Not heard The Ravens though, as always a listen would be good.
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 4, 2019 11:30:46 GMT 12
It appears that the Ravens use the SEAS Exotic alnico magnet 'full-range' drivers with the traditional whizzer feature to extend HF. These retail at US$869 ea.  I happen to be using the ceramic magnet version of this SEAS driver (as far as I can see), the SEAS FA22RCZ, which is a fraction of the price, incredible value. I've had them in my horns for ~7 years & they replaced Lowthers (price up there with the SEAS Exotic). SEAS know how to make a good loudspeaker driver. Build quality is excellent.  (The FA22RCZ in my horn cabinet.)  These 'fullrange' drivers tend to have rising upper mid response & thus need to be used in a cabinet (or horn) that augments the mid down to bass, in order to balance the upper range - which can sound 'shouty' otherwise. Also need care matching with amplification, they tend to sound best with valve amps, in particular single-ended triode because the low 'damping factor' of these amps allows the bottom end to 'bloom' a little - again 'expanding' the bottom end. (See Nelson Pass, his First Watt amps should match well too.) Some folks augment the top end of 'fullrange' drivers with a tweeter. Aside from extension, this can offer an advantage depending on xover employed, of rolling off the fullrange's top end a bit, where cone-breakup distortion occurs. (I use my SEAS with a Fostex tweeter.) For the money, I'd consider also the ZU or De Vore loudspeakers.
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Pundit
Post by garym on Jun 4, 2019 18:27:50 GMT 12
I've had good experience with full range speakers, particularly the Mark Audio drivers. The Alpair 7 or 10.3 in their Pensil enclosure is quite something. The Alpair 7.3s are about 200 a pair from the local agent. And yes a 3inch driver in one of these enclosures can do bass. I haven't yet played with whizzer cone drivers but have a pair of Fane 12-250tc drivers on their way. 12 inch and dual concentric whizzers. These have quite a growing following amongst the full range crowd.
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Pundit
Post by garym on Jun 4, 2019 19:12:19 GMT 12
By the way... All full range drivers rely on cone breakup to achieve their extension. How well this is managed determines the response shape. Also the off axis response. The cone effectively degenerates into an increasing number of independently radiating elements.
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f&b The Ravens Jun 4, 2019 19:27:27 GMT 12
- Edited Jun 4, 2019 20:56:02 GMT 12 by colinf: Corrected info
Post by colinf on Jun 4, 2019 19:27:27 GMT 12
That’s why a well integrated tweeter is good. But then you get phase anomalies between the different positions of the drivers at different listening positions. There’s only one position at which it will be right. I notice Lowther have been using a decoupling arrangement on their latest full ranges. To quote Lowther from their website: ”Using the latest method of construction, the inner cone is now isolated from the outer. This is not readily visible, but what is noticeable is that the rim of the inner cone is terminated with a reverse roll. Where once sound frequencies cancelled each other and information was lost, now all that information is retrieved and can be enjoyed. Where once sound frequencies were reinforced by the two cones working in unison at certain frequencies, now there is no over-forward sound reproduced. The frequency range is so smooth, and so much more detail from the recorded source is reproduced, that an entirely new level of listening experience will be enjoyed.”
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Pundit
Post by garym on Jun 5, 2019 9:16:31 GMT 12
It's likely that anything with a whizzer cone is compromised... But none the less can be enjoyable. Distributed mode drivers interested me for a while as a way to get coherent almost full range sound. I ran experiments with exciters on a variety of materials with some interesting results. If anyone is interested in experimenting they can have my collection of exciters and panels.
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 5, 2019 10:08:58 GMT 12
I notice Lowther have been using a decoupling arrangement on their latest full ranges. To quote Lowther from their website: ”Using the latest method of construction, the inner cone is now isolated from the outer. This is not readily visible, but what is noticeable is that the rim of the inner cone is terminated with a reverse roll. Where once sound frequencies cancelled each other and information was lost, now all that information is retrieved and can be enjoyed. Where once sound frequencies were reinforced by the two cones working in unison at certain frequencies, now there is no over-forward sound reproduced. The frequency range is so smooth, and so much more detail from the recorded source is reproduced, that an entirely new level of listening experience will be enjoyed.” Digression, sorry foveaux.... From my Lowther days, this is the Lowther whizzer cone change that colinf mentions, sometimes referred to as 'reverse roll'... These pics were taken in ~2005 - this was introduced around that time. I think to stiffen up the whizzer cone rim.)  (Traditional Lowther whizzer, 91mm dia.)  ('New' Lowther whizzer.)
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Post by colinf on Jun 5, 2019 19:29:37 GMT 12
The Markaudio drivers look interesting, as do the Fane 12-250tc, with their triple cones. The Markaudio drivers remind me of Jordan drivers. Those drivers, as well as the Seas full ranges, have much more linear travel than the Lowthers. With limited travel the amount of absolute bass output would also be limited. So I can imagine The Ravens putting out more bass than a typical full range driver system.
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Post by foveaux on Jun 5, 2019 20:29:28 GMT 12
I've kept a 'watch' on a couple of single driver speaker builders over the years, mostly when I was getting my valve amp systems going: Omega: omegaloudspeakers.com and Horn Shoppe: www.thehornshoppe.com Recently I've noticed both these builders are 'augmenting' their single driver speaker systems:    Of course, plenty of options if you go down the DIY path Mark, Jordan, Lowthers, Fostex, SEAS etc. (and more economic/satisfying) but that would be huge risk/challenge for me, being DIY skill challenged (and that's being charitable  )
"I see music as a lifetime affair." [Rory Gallagher]
"Free - I miss that band, but when I look back, we were very young" [Paul Rodgers]
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Post by colinf on Jun 6, 2019 0:15:46 GMT 12
Good point, and it’s a primary reason I haven’t really gotten into building speakers with full range drivers. The cabinets can be more complex than normal speakers, especially transmission lines popular for full range drivers. The commercial versions are usually quite costly though, a reason for not going down that route either! I was just thinking the other day that Lowther could sell a lot more of their drivers if they made finished speakers in cabinets. Another one I’ve been looking at lately are Manger speakers from Germany. I owned some a while ago and loved their natural, unhyped sound. Unfortunately mine were damaged in shipping and remain in bits in their box.
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 6, 2019 9:44:24 GMT 12
colinf - Lowther used to sell fully built Lowther loudspeakers (Fidelio, Acousta, etc) up to the late 1990s at least, as I recall from their literature at the time. Easy to build 'fullrange' cabinet designs - Paul Voigt's TQWP (Tapered Quarter Wave Pipe) is one of the easiest FR cabinet designs I know of. See - Voigt Pipe Resource PageVoigt of course, in the 1930s, was the originator of the loudspeaker driver (super light paper cone, super powerful magnet with ultra tight magnet gap & double-sided wound underhung coil) that became the Lowther. rmc001 here, is building a TQWP using the SEAS FA22RCZ driver. It doesn't get much simpler than this in terms of spkr cabinetwork: 
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Post by rmc001 on Jun 6, 2019 10:41:37 GMT 12
Hope to be able to report some progress on this after my computer course finishes sometime this month.
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Post by colinf on Jun 6, 2019 19:37:58 GMT 12
Lowther used to sell assembled speakers, but not currently! They just sell cabinet plans. The TQWP looks like an elegant solution, but I wonder how it compares to designs like the Alfredo Lowther, designed by the late, great Alf Lepp from the Melbourne Audio Club. My speaker building skills will need to be taken out of storage! 
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 7, 2019 9:25:53 GMT 12
Oh that takes me back to early-mid 2000s & my Mauhorns, first attempt at a high efficiency, folded horn. Sadly I did not have access to CNC machining back then!   A lot of work but compact for a horn. Limited mainly by the mouth size & the front facing horn allows only floor-loading (with maybe some wall reinforcement). Corner-loading is of course much better for room LFs - Ketil Parow's 'Big Fun' horn design of that time is such a design:  (Simple & clever how the rear bott corners, both sides, take advantage of corner loading.)
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Post by michaelw on Jun 7, 2019 11:57:46 GMT 12
anyone experimenting with single drivers and open baffles ?
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 7, 2019 12:00:59 GMT 12
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Post by rmc001 on Jun 7, 2019 12:15:30 GMT 12
. 
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Post by michaelw on Jun 7, 2019 12:36:30 GMT 12
tease 
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Post by rmc001 on Jun 7, 2019 13:10:13 GMT 12
Yes. I should apologise for that. 😋
Although it has good things going for them - I don't do so much listening as I have a bit of a hearing sensitivity problem plus I think my DAC-AH might need upgrading to something a bit more competent like maybe a Schitt modi as there's still a few sharp edges and a bit unmusical.
I haven't tried spinning any "vynalls" either which is a bit shameful of me. Lol.
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Pundit
Post by garym on Jun 7, 2019 17:34:17 GMT 12
Mr Wong. Have you not heard my open baffles? U-Frame 12" Eminence at the bottom and a 3" Mark Audio fullrange above. I like them more than my Quads.
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Pundit
Post by garym on Jun 7, 2019 17:36:40 GMT 12
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Post by michaelw on Jun 7, 2019 18:14:58 GMT 12
i think i have
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Post by colinf on Jun 7, 2019 18:42:11 GMT 12
Nice, simple boxes, that’s what I like! My room is tiny. I wonder if just the 10.3 would have enough bass without needing to be augmented in the bottom end. Or perhaps use a bigger driver.
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Post by Owen Y on Jun 7, 2019 20:19:18 GMT 12
rmc001 - you have your OBs sitting on their sides nowadays?
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Post by rmc001 on Jun 7, 2019 22:05:32 GMT 12
Yep - I seem to get better bass with both of them sitting on their sides. 🙂
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Pundit
Post by garym on Jun 7, 2019 22:41:25 GMT 12
Nice, simple boxes, that’s what I like! My room is tiny. I wonder if just the 10.3 would have enough bass without needing to be augmented in the bottom end. Or perhaps use a bigger driver. The 10.3 was noted for its prodigious bass output...
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Pundit
Post by garym on Jun 12, 2019 18:54:34 GMT 12
And for those inclined there is the Frugalhorn. There are available designs for the Mark Audio drivers.
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Post by colinf on Jun 13, 2019 0:16:18 GMT 12
The Frugalhorns look good too. There seems to be a lot of difference as to how much damping people put in the transmission line. What would be best, and does it depend on the driver?  imageupload
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